Was Mitre Square being watched that Double Event night?

[Michael W Richards]

^^^

Again, she was in police custody for several hours. If she'd had any information that might lead to a massive reward, why on earth didn't she let them know? Indeed, why wait to be arrested at all? Like Monty said, she had no reason not to go to the authorities sooner.

And, sorry, I don't buy this "negotiate a better deal" idea. A bunch of thugs who'd killed before wouldn't hesitate to get rid of a troublemaker, especially one who was barely five foot and a fart and built like a sparrow.

Why would she tell police anything until she had explored a option that had potential for being much more lucrative than a few hundred pounds. I reiterate, Beach was paid 5000L to tell all at the Commission, so how much might a killer/terrorist pay to have information against him silenced? Maybe nothing...maybe it was cheaper and easier to just silence the witness against him like you suggest. Maybe Kate didn't appreciate that fact.

There was money out there Sam, reward money, Irish self rule financing, bribes, pay for double agents...just because Kate didn't have any doesn't mean it wasn't available. Lets say she thought the killer might have been someone who was getting financing for terrorist causes...those pockets were deep. Just ask Tumblety's bankers.

[Wickerman]

She might see this as away out..for good. That's enough motivation for someone with nothing Ill bet.

Well, she got her way out alright.

[Wickerman]

I never said she intended to actually go to the authorities,...

Wasn't it a private reward?
I think I read that this Lord Montagu M.P. had offered a £100 reward and asked the Home Office to sanction it, but I don't think they did.
So, her telling the police she had info wouldn't get her anywhere, it wasn't a police matter.
The offer of a reward was a private matter in this case.

[Wickerman]

Due to no response from the Home Office, Montagu M.P. appears to have handed over the responsibility for managing the reward to a committee of tradespeople....

Until late in the afternoon the expected notification had not arrived, but Mr. Montagu has authorised us to say that he adheres to his intention, and will pay the sum of £100 to the persons who may become entitled to it. The notices which appeared, in the form of handbills and posters placarded in the shop windows in Mile-end, Whitechapel, and Houndsditch, had no reference to Mr. Montagu's offer. A committee of the tradespeople and others, which is to meet every night at the Crown, Mile-end-road, were responsible for the issue of the following manifesto:

"Finding that, in spite of murders being committed in our midst, our police force are still inadequate to discover the author or authors of the late atrocities, we, the undersigned, have formed ourselves into a committee, and intend offering a substantial reward to any one, citizen or otherwise, who shall give such information that will bring the murderer or murderers to justice."
Daily Telegraph, 12 Sept. 1888.

Therefore, Eddowes needed to talk to the committee at The Crown, Mile End road.

[Busy Beaver]

I wonder then , if Hutch passed by The Crown public house on his way back through Mile End from Romford, he noticed those very handbills in the window that could have still been up despite it being halfway through November.

[Michael W Richards]

The Woodford Times, Oct 5th...."The prompt action of the Lord Mayor in offering a reward of £500 for the apprehension of the Mitre-square murderer has been received with general and emphatic satisfaction. The sum offered by his lordship, together with £400 which two newspapers offer to supply, the £100 offered by Mr. Montagu, M.P., and the £200 collected by the Vigilance Committee, make an aggregate sum of £1200, sufficient to excite the cupidity even of an accomplice, and to sharpen the wits of the dullest detectives. In regard to the offering of a reward, the City Police authorities have a much freer hand than the Scotland-yard Police, and they can act without consulting the Home Office."

My timing on the authority involvement was off, thanks for the nod Jon. I had thought there was some gov money on the table before Kates murder. It actually emphasizes my point though, what might a killer pay to silence a threat vs a paltry hundred pounds? What significance does the nose cutting have, does it relate to previous assaults on streetwalker "canaries" for sticking their noses where they don't belong? In the story she tells the landlady " I think I know him", does that mean in some social relationship, or that she knows of him. If it was someone she knew socially, might that account for her apparent bravery.. meeting someone in the middle of the night during the Ripper scare?

I believe that the evidence in its entirety for the murder of Kate Eddowes contains some hearsay regarding her state of mind since returning from hopping, and I believe that a storyline that consists of her trying to extort money from the party or parties that she felt were behind the murders before accepting a modest sale value of her information is supported within. I also believe that the Police had interest in the goings on in Mitre Square that night, maybe the Post Office Robbery, maybe a rumor of a meeting involving Kate.

In no other murder I can think of are ALL the closest witnesses to the crime, at the time it occurs, police or ex police. 7 men. 1 with a view overlooking the very crime scene. And in no other Ripper murder investigation do I read open speculation that the victim might have had an arranged meeting, or been killed elsewhere.

[Joshua Rogan]

Due to no response from the Home Office, Montagu M.P. appears to have handed over the responsibility for managing the reward to a committee of tradespeople....

Although the report makes it seem that way, I believe these were two separate rewards. As Michael's post shows.

Therefore, Eddowes needed to talk to the committee at The Crown, Mile End road.

Would that necessarily be the case? If Kate had told the police that she was meeting the murderer that night and because of this info they had arrested him, that would qualify as giving information leading to his capture. I don't think she would have had to inform those offering a reward *before* the capture, would she?

[Joshua Rogan]

I wonder then , if Hutch passed by The Crown public house on his way back through Mile End from Romford, he noticed those very handbills in the window that could have still been up despite it being halfway through November.

Perhaps, but there was one reported to have been on a wall outside Miller's Court;

"About half way down this street on the right hand side is Miller's court, the entrance to which is a narrow arched passage, and within a few yards of which, by the way, last night there loomed grimly through the murky air a partly torn down bill announcing a reward of £100 for the discovery of the murderer on the last occasion."

[Wickerman]

Although the report makes it seem that way, I believe these were two separate rewards. As Michael's post shows.

Good point Joshua.

"Mr. Harris stated that the meeting was hastily held at the Crown, there being a quorum of the Vigilance Committee present, consisting of Messrs. Lusk, Harris, Aarons, S. Lawton, and Reeves..."

The Whitechapel Vigilance Committee did meet at the Crown.

Yet, we have no reports that the V.C. were offering a reward in September (at least I don't know of one).

The 12 Sept. press report appears to suggest Montagu M.P. enlisted the Whitechapel V.C. to handle the £100 donated by Montagu, but the V.C. had no funds earmarked for a reward at that time?
The press report posted by Michael seems to indicate that by 5th Oct. the V.C. came up with £200 of their own.

[Joshua Rogan]

Good point Joshua.

"Mr. Harris stated that the meeting was hastily held at the Crown, there being a quorum of the Vigilance Committee present, consisting of Messrs. Lusk, Harris, Aarons, S. Lawton, and Reeves..."

The Whitechapel Vigilance Committee did meet at the Crown.

Yet, we have no reports that the V.C. were offering a reward in September (at least I don't know of one).

The 12 Sept. press report appears to suggest Montagu M.P. enlisted the Whitechapel V.C. to handle the £100 donated by Montagu, but the V.C. had no funds earmarked for a reward at that time?
The press report posted by Michael seems to indicate that by 5th Oct. the V.C. came up with £200 of their own.

The VC had only just been formed at the time of Montagu's offer. They do state that they intend to offer a large reward. I think they were starting to solicit for donations, although at the same time lobbying for an official reward from the Home Office.
I know there's a report somewhere (that I can't currently find) which lists a few of the early donations; Lusk and Abrams I think put £5 each, and I think Charrington of the brewery family donated too. Although I also seem to recall one implying that donations weren't exactly flooding in.
A report by Swanson in early November mentions rewards offered by three sources; The City, Samuel Montagu and the Vigilance Committee.

[JeffHamm]

Did the Police officer who arrested Kate notice what she was wearing when he took her away? Also the officer at the station must have got a look at her clothing as well. I doubt very much she had a stash of clothing hidden somewhere to change in to and that's were she went instead of going home. I don't think she had a pre-planned meeting, but just perhaps she had got it in her head, that the man she thought was the Ripper hung out in that location, or near too it and she went there.

Yes, the police at the station indicated they noticed she was wearing the apron. There's some reference to this in the police files (Evans and Skinner's book). More than one of the police at the station indicate they believed it was her as I recall (haven't got the book in front of me to pull up the exact details, sorry).

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

That apron section....there were Police at both scenes that night, Mitre and Goulston, it always troubles me. The ambiguity in the recollections of the time it was placed there, the specific way the message was written, the spelling of the word Jews for example. The inference of the location suggesting a return from the city to the East End.

That apron section could have been discreetly disposed of very easily by whomever took it. No-one need ever find it. And by the evidence, it could have been placed there within about an hour of the murder, not just within minutes as the killer fled...which again raises the question of whether this is strategically placed evidence.

[Busy Beaver]

Any interesting information thrown up about George Morrison? Or is he up there with Lech- going about his business as usual when suddenly S**t happens?

[Michael W Richards]

I assuming you mean George Morris, the nightwatchman at the tea company based in Mitre Square? His door was open apparently and he heard nothing. Funny that earlier that week he suggested that if the Ripper were to show up where he was he'd give it to him. He challenged the killer.

[Sam Flynn]

I assuming you mean George Morris, the nightwatchman at the tea company based in Mitre Square? His door was open apparently and he heard nothing.

Well, he was inside the building, busy sweeping up and stuff.

Funny that earlier that week he suggested that if the Ripper were to show up where he was he'd give it to him.

I might be doing him a disservice, but I always imagine Morris as something like Corporal Jones from Dad's Army