Did Jack leave the Scene by carriage?

[Rubyretro]

Somehow I have a hard time imagining Jack or any punter moaning for that matter but maybe it's a good ruse before an attack?

(Hi Greg !)
Well I actually mean't after the attack -I presume that the killer
enjoyed the attack, since he evidently wanted to repeat the performance.

[GregBaron]

A moan or a groan?

Hi Ruby and Tom,

We may have to consult our dictionaries to distinguish between a moan and a groan.

I basically agree with you both, yes Tom, she could have had her mouth covered in a smothering fashion which is basically what I was trying to say.

She may have been throttled about the neck or the neck and mouth simultaneously. This is indeed the only time I can consider a moan being heard unless as Ruby says, it came from the killer.

Somehow I have a hard time imagining Jack or any punter moaning for that matter but maybe it's a good ruse before an attack?

As for Lechmere, wouldn't a gut attack first leave a lot more blood on the dress and garments?

I got a kick out of your Harry Met Sally comment Ruby. Thanks for that.


Greg

[Rubyretro]

,

then it could have been Polly with another client, or possibly the Ripper himself.

That doesn't hold water, Tom. She was a very poor prostitute in a very piteous predicament...why an earth would she bother 'faking' ?

Hang on..no...you're not seriously suggesting ...?

The fact remains that, as Greg pointed out, you can't moan with a cut windpipe, and any description of moaning means that either Lechmere is right in surmising that her abdomen was attacked before her throat was cut, or it was the killer himself.

Or drunken tuneless humming from a passer by (that was a joke -but in fact the 'moaning' was described after it was known that the murder had been committed, so actually it could be true...).

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Greg,

As Polly was grabbed about the mouth in a smothering fashion, any moaning might have been her muffled cries. Though based on Lechmere's intriguing time line, if the train passed right at 3:30am, but Cross and Paul weren't at the scene until 10 or 15 minutes later, then it could have been Polly with another client, or possibly the Ripper himself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=GregBaron;199548]Hi Luke111,

I think it would be very difficult to breath or moan when one's vocal chords and wind pipe are severed to the vertebrae. The woman was dead.

The only moaning I could surmise is some sort of pre sex play or possibly a violent under the breath groan while being throttled. Once the throat is sliced all sound ceases except perhaps the gurgling of blood into the gutter...

I agree with you Greg -except for your 'When Harry met Sally' moment.

There is nothing to say that if there was any groaning, that it was from a woman anyway. It could have been from the killer.

[GregBaron]

Moan?

Paul felt her face and hands and said "I think she's breathing but it's very little if she is".

Hi Luke111,

I think it would be very difficult to breath or moan when one's vocal chords and wind pipe are severed to the vertebrae. The woman was dead.

The only moaning I could surmise is some sort of pre sex play or possibly a violent under the breath groan while being throttled. Once the throat is sliced all sound ceases except perhaps the gurgling of blood into the gutter...


Greg

[lynn cates]

short of time

Hello Tom. Right. They were pressed for time, according to the story.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lechmere. Thanks for that. This post should be reapplied to the 'Polly Nichols' thread as it's valuable for discussion. I can't see Cross hanging around the scene for 10 minutes waiting for Paul.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Luke111]

Hi all,


Also, judging by the M.O., I doubt there was much moaning going on. no time really, between throttle and throat slicing....

Greg

you might be right there. But Cross/Paul who found the body thought they felt a faint heartbeat:

Robert Paul was a carman working in Corbett's Court (today's Corbett Place) off Hanbury Street, Spitalfields, he lived at 30 Foster Street, Whitechapel. He was on his way to work as he passed down Buck's Row at approx. 3.45am on 31st August 1888, when he was approached by Charles Cross who had just discovered the body of Mary Ann Nichols. Paul felt her face and hands and said "I think she's breathing but it's very little if she is". He thought she may be dead.

Dont know if those too chaps had that much medical knowledge though

About the carriage. Im not that familiar with ways of transportation in whitechapel and the east end., so if anyone here could enlighten me, and maybe post an link to information about routines or so in the East end, please do.

[Lechmere]

Tom,
I tend to discount this witness but then I hadn’t thought of the very valid point Lynn made about snoozing and not realising it.
The train was timetabled for 3.30 – which I think should be kept as a constant.

The rest of the time line that night is exceptionally confused and contradictory – what a surprise.

For example Cross says he left home at 3.30 (although some accounts say 3.20).
It is seven minutes walk to the murder scene (presuming he went straight there).
So he should be there about 3.37.
Paul says he left home at 3.45. It is two minutes walk to the murder scene. He should be there at 3.47.
He was 40 yards behind Cross though at about 3.45 ish
Neil says he found the body at 3.45 as well and summoned Thain roughly at the same time.
Emma Green (next door) and Purkiss (opposite) claim to have been knocked at 4.00 – but other policemen and by-standers were there then, at a time when Neil would have almost certainly been alone.
Llewellyn reckons he got there at about 4.00. Thain fetched him and seems to have skived first by calling in at the slaughter yard to get his cape – and told the slaughtermen what had happened.
The slaughtermen went to look at the body at 4.20.
It seems to me that if Thain set off to get Llewellyn at 3.50 it is unlikely Llewellyn would have been roused, dressed and back to Bucks Row before 4.10.
Paul says it took them 4 minutes to find Mizen. But Mizen says he arrived at the murder scene at 4.15.
Paul says Mizen continued knocking up and Cross pointedly told Mizen that he was not sure that Nichols was dead.
The body was taken to the mortuary at 4.30 – but Mizen had to go to Bethnal Green police station and back to get the ambulance.
I could add other timings which would just add to the confusion.

How did humble people wake up each morning at the right time? How could they tell the time if they couldn’t hear a church clock – and most people wouldn’t be able to?
Were clockwork alarm clocks cheap?

However it is fairly clear that the discovery happened at about 3.45 which is 15 minutes after the train arrived. The earliest feasible time for the Cross-Paul discussion is 3.40.

Llewellyn said the murder had happened within half an hour – or even a smaller timescale.
She was still warm as was testified by Paul and Neil (and Cross for what his testimony is worth).
If Cross didn’t do it then he must have just missed the culprit. The signs are that the culprit was disturbed as Polly’s dress was half pulled down, covering her stomach wounds. That tells me that the culprit wanted to buy time and didn’t want it to be obvious she was dead.

I think the murder happened at about 3.40. Paul disturbed him at about 3.43. Neil arrived about 3.48. Paul and Cross met Mizen also at about 3.48.
There would have been whispering at 3.40 and 3.43.

Everyone – including Cross (for what it’s worth) say they saw no one else about.

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom
At the inquest the police admitted that they hadn't interviewed all the residents. It was one of many **** ups that happened in the initial hours of this murder investigation.
The Cross/Paul conversation was at about 3.45 or later - well after the train anyway, so the conversation is unlikely to have been them.
I think it is more likely that she helpfully remembered things that really didn't happen, which is often the case in such circumstances.

(I didn't use a very bad word there - this forum must be very sensative!)
I forgot - the whispers could have been Cross and Polly of course.

Okay, now I'm intrigued. What is your timeline for the murder, Cross & Paul hovering over the body, and where does the passing train fit in? As far as I can tell, our witness has strange moaning (a dying Nichols or a killer getting his rocks off) followed sometime shortly later by two whispering voices. As we know that a short time after her murder, two men (Cross and Paul) did indeed talk briefly over her body, what evidence would indicate this couldn't have been those two men? And if she heard OTHER people whispering, why didn't she hear Cross and Paul as well?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GregBaron]

Silent attack....

Hi all,

If Jack had a carriage, he also had a Top hat, flowing cape and Gladstone bag and we know the credence given the Toff hypothesis...........

Also, judging by the M.O., I doubt there was much moaning going on. no time really, between throttle and throat slicing....

I imagine a carriage passing at 3 or 4 in the morning would have been heard and duly noted by the locals........probably didn't happen very often......


Greg

[curious4]

Carriage?

Afternoon all,

Well, in reply, where would he have got a carriage from? Jack London writes that he had great difficulty in persuading his "cabby" to drive into the East End. And if a private carriage, wouldn´t it have been noticed?

Best regards,
C4

[lynn cates]

sleep patterns

Hello Lechmere.

"The Cross/Paul conversation was at about 3.45 or later - well after the train anyway, so the conversation is unlikely to have been them."

Indeed. But there is a phenomenon--experienced by many--in which you are aroused by a noise and then go back to sleep. A subsequent noise can reawaken the sleeper; but, the sleeper may severely misjudge the intervening time.

Also, there are times when one has difficulty sleeping and avers being awake, when, in fact, one was sleeping lightly at the time.

Cheers.
LC

[Lechmere]

Tom
At the inquest the police admitted that they hadn't interviewed all the residents. It was one of many **** ups that happened in the initial hours of this murder investigation.
The Cross/Paul conversation was at about 3.45 or later - well after the train anyway, so the conversation is unlikely to have been them.
I think it is more likely that she helpfully remembered things that really didn't happen, which is often the case in such circumstances.

(I didn't use a very bad word there - this forum must be very sensative!)
I forgot - the whispers could have been Cross and Polly of course