Did Jack leave the Scene by carriage?

[lynn cates]

Polly

Hello Bridewell.

"As seems to have been the case with Annie Chapman. "

Quite right. But Polly Nichols too.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Research available...

Hi all,

I'm no expert on strangulation nor do I particularly want to be. I based my statement on Ted Bundy readings where it was stated blood always comes up.

I'm sure the materials are out there if someone wants to research.

I think the point remains that there wasn't time to strangle - with a choke-hold being the more likely method.

I expect someone out there has superior knowledge on this point.

Good point about Cross and Paul whispering Bridewell...


Greg

[Bridewell]

Indeed

Hello Greg, Tom. Yes, a protruding or lacerated tongue would be more likely.

Cheers.
LC

As seems to have been the case with Annie Chapman.

Just a couple of points on earlier posts:

Why would Cross & Paul be whispering? Surely, if they've just found a woman they think may be dead, it hardly matters if they wake someone up by talking about it? A whispered conversation is a secret one, surely? It would hardly matter to Cross & Paul if they were overheard.

"It takes at least 5 minutes" (to kill someone by strangulation). Is there any evidence to support this assertion?

Cheers, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

tongue

Hello Greg, Tom. Yes, a protruding or lacerated tongue would be more likely.

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Strangulation to death brings blood up from the mouth

Yikes, this is rarely true.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abnormal One,

I agree with you but I think there was blood spray from at least a few of the victims. Remember the 18 inch high blood on the fence at Hanbury St?

I fully believe he rendered the blood choke, took the victim to the ground until unconsciousness, then turned the neck away and slit the throat. The blood then pumped out into the gutter. The lack of blood on the top of the clothes, the lack of a sign of struggle, the jaw bruising and tongue protrusion (Chapman), the silence....... all indicate this to me.

Stride, Eddowes and MJK may have been attacked at the throat without the throttling, I suppose I'm speaking mostly of Nichols and Chapman ...

Strangulation to death brings blood up from the mouth.....the victims would have had blood all over the front of their clothing and the ripper would have a bigger mess to deal with.........not to mention the 5 minutes it might take............way too long considering the timeframes.............

This is how I see it at least.............


Greg

Hi Greg
Thanks for the response. I agree.

[GregBaron]

Choke then kill...

Its sometimes refered to as a "blood choke" to distinguish it from strangulation or "wind choke" (crushing the wind pipe-preventing air from getting to the lungs). It stops the flow of blood to the brain by compression on the neck arteries and takes only seconds to knock someone out. I dont know how long it takes to kill someone from this method, but I do know you can render them unconscious with relatively little force in a short time. But then again, if the ripper used a blood choke to knock out his victims, they would still be alive, heart beating, blood pumping, so if he cut their throats after knocking them out this way there would still be blood spray when he made the cut.

But perhaps he held on long enough using this method to kill them first before making a cut.

Hi Abnormal One,

I agree with you but I think there was blood spray from at least a few of the victims. Remember the 18 inch high blood on the fence at Hanbury St?

I fully believe he rendered the blood choke, took the victim to the ground until unconsciousness, then turned the neck away and slit the throat. The blood then pumped out into the gutter. The lack of blood on the top of the clothes, the lack of a sign of struggle, the jaw bruising and tongue protrusion (Chapman), the silence....... all indicate this to me.

Stride, Eddowes and MJK may have been attacked at the throat without the throttling, I suppose I'm speaking mostly of Nichols and Chapman ...

Strangulation to death brings blood up from the mouth.....the victims would have had blood all over the front of their clothing and the ripper would have a bigger mess to deal with.........not to mention the 5 minutes it might take............way too long considering the timeframes.............

This is how I see it at least.............


Greg

[Abby Normal]

Hi all,

I think some of us mean a choke-hold when when we say strangle. I use the term throttle to distinguish. As Don pointed out and Lynn seconded, strangling someone to death is a long, bloody ordeal. Choking to unconsciousness is something else entirely. We worked this to death (no pun intended) on another thread some time ago.

I still think more should be made of how/when Jack learned to choke-hold.

Thanks for clarifying your position Lechmere, indeed what you suggest is a possibility although in my mind a remote one.

Oh yeah, this thread is about carriage rides isn't it?, I'd say we've again veered off course..............(pun intended)



Greg

Hi greg
Its sometimes refered to as a "blood choke" to distinguish it from strangulation or "wind choke" (crushing the wind pipe-preventing air from getting to the lungs). It stops the flow of blood to the brain by compression on the neck arteries and takes only seconds to knock someone out. I dont know how long it takes to kill someone from this method, but I do know you can render them unconscious with relatively little force in a short time. But then again, if the ripper used a blood choke to knock out his victims, they would still be alive, heart beating, blood pumping, so if he cut their throats after knocking them out this way there would still be blood spray when he made the cut.

But perhaps he held on long enough using this method to kill them first before making a cut.

[Errata]

I can think of one good reason Jack didn't flee the scene by carriage. The horse would have freaked out past control. Herd prey animals are incredibly sensitive to the smell of blood. Doctors and nurses used to be able to get cabs because they cleaned up with harsh soap or used carbolic acid. Butchers had a devil of a time getting a carriage. The cart stopped at the body of Liz Stride because the horse smelled blood, and would go no further towards a potential predator. A man soaked in blood would have a hard time hailing a cab. Unless the horse was doped there is no way it would stop near a bloody person. A horses defense is to run if it can. In the case of Liz Stride, the horse couldn't run as it couldn't turn around with the cart. Given the option to stop at the smell of blood (which the idiot with the whip might try to do) or run right past it as fast as possible, any horse is going to run. It would be a fight with the driver, but the driver ain't gonna win.

[GregBaron]

Down a dark alley...

Hi all,

I think some of us mean a choke-hold when when we say strangle. I use the term throttle to distinguish. As Don pointed out and Lynn seconded, strangling someone to death is a long, bloody ordeal. Choking to unconsciousness is something else entirely. We worked this to death (no pun intended) on another thread some time ago.

I still think more should be made of how/when Jack learned to choke-hold.

Thanks for clarifying your position Lechmere, indeed what you suggest is a possibility although in my mind a remote one.

Oh yeah, this thread is about carriage rides isn't it?, I'd say we've again veered off course..............(pun intended)



Greg

[Luke111]

Groan (or grunt)perhaps came from the killer himself-as he was exherting himself while in the proces of killing or cutting up Nichols.

If that was the case, wouldnt that imply that he was in fact not that methodical, but maybe passionate, aroused or so by the killings?
On the other hand it could simply mean that he was "working" hard. i dont know how physical exhausting these kind of "procedures" are/where...

[lynn cates]

strangling

Hello Don.

"Technically, to strangle is to manually choke unto death . . . "

Delighted to see you're using the word correctly.

Can you make sense of the phrase, "attempted to strangle"? Would it mean something like, "began to choke but was interrupted before onset of death"?

Cheers.
LC

[Barnaby]

Perhaps this thread needs moved to the Nichols board. In any event, while I do not believe Cross was the killer, he certainly is a person of interest. Was any attempt made to keep tabs on him? For example, did he have an alibi for the Chapman murder? We often discuss how difficult it was for the police given an absence of both forensic and psychological knowledge, but this seems common sense yet I don't know if it was done.

[Supe]

Lechmere,

Almost with one movement he strangles her quickly and brutally while lying her down to the floor.

Here we go again. Technically, to strangle is to manually choke unto death and can take upwards of five minutes to accomplish. If you wish to prevent blood spurting all over you need only briefly restrict blood flow to the brain, victim loses consciousness at once, one good cut to the throat and the victim is quickly dead and the heart ceases to pump.

Don.

[Lechmere]

Polly would have been dead or nearly so by strangulation prior to any knife wounds to the neck or stomach.
I am not certain about a punch or the initial attack upon the stomach but merely put them forward as possible interpretations of the evidence.

The wiping of the hands and knife wouldn't really have been noticed on her dark dress in the dark, and by the time the clothes were inspected they had been tampered with by the attendants and nothing much could be established.
I think whoever did it almost certainly wiped their knife and hands on her dress and did so in the other murders as well.