Did Jack leave the Scene by carriage?

[GregBaron]

Silence the head first...

Good account Lechmere............you could very well be right but I don't think the accepted sequence of events clashes with the evidence...

I can't see him attacking the stomach while she was still alive........she could come to and cry out........very risky

And why, when not done with his abdominal work, suddenly switch course and go to the head for two vicious, deep, nearly decapitating cuts...........one would do then he could return to the abdomen....

I'm also unaware of evidence of the wiping of hands or a knife on the garments.......I think that would have been noticed and mentioned....

Your arguments are sound and can't be refuted...........I'm just not convinced and I don't for a moment believe Cross guilty..............but that's just my opinion....

I think I'll go back and look at the Nichols inquest/autopsy reports....


Greg

[Lechmere]

Greg
Only a small amount of blood flowed from Polly’s throat and this seems to have collected on the pavement. Her throat was clearly cut while she was lying flat on her back with her head slightly to one side. The quantity has been described as being the equivalent of a wine glass and a half.
There doesn’t seem to have been any blood on her upper clothes.
By contrast a considerable amount of blood soaked into her dresses and other undergarments. Again as she was lying on her back it went flowed beneath her, or behind her (to her lower back area) and was soaked up in her clothes like that a sponge.
He will have pulled her dress upwards to get access to her stomach. It seems her stays were an obstacle to him though. That would have meant that the inside of the front of the dress would not have been anywhere near as covered in blood as the underside.

Usually he left the dress up – leaving the stomach wounds on display.

If this theory is correct then the attack could have gone like this:

He stuns her with a blow (possibly).
Almost with one movement he strangles her quickly and brutally while lying her down to the floor.
He turns and attacks her stomach, leaving the dress up (he is facing west).
He turns back and slashes her throat (he is now facing east).
While doing this he notices Paul turning into Bucks Row some 150 yards away by the light at the junction with Brady Street (Neil similarly saw Thain at this distance).
He throws Polly’s dress back but it doesn’t go all the way down – probably because of the stickiness of the wounds and associated blood, and because her dress got tangled behind her when she went to the ground.
He wipes his hands and knife on her dress, hides his knife in his apron (the one he wore to the inquest on Monday –when he suspiciously turned up in his work clothes) and slowly reverses into the middle of the road.

I base the possibility of a blow on the bruising to the jaw. She was drunk and slight – a punch may have produced a gasp, which may be why he didn’t try it again. I doubt if she would have been able to scuffle. A straight attempt at strangulation has similar problems associated with it.
How he managed to act so quickly and silently – with few signs of struggle – is one of the many mysteries associated with this case of course.

The strangle - throat slash -stomach mutilation order of proceedings is more logical but when looking at the Nichols case in detail it doesn’t seem to me to take account of what is known.

[GregBaron]

No punch or fighting...

The reports do suggest that there was a considerable quantity of blood soaked into her dress and underclothes. That is what I based my suggestion on.
I don’t know whether I have said it before but I also think he may have punched her in the face first. There was bruising to the lower jaw. I know it has been suggested that this could be caused by fingers straying upward during the strangulation. But that would be an inefficient strangulation and I think he did it very quickly and powerfully. The straying fingers would have diminished the pressure on the throat. The moan may be a consequence of a punch.

Interesting Lechmere, but I would expect the blood pooling from the throat to soak her garments underneath but not on top. If he ripped open her abdomen while alive I would expect the front of the dress to be soaked in blood.....I'll have to check the reports again but I don't believe this to be the case......I also doubt a punch, a punch would produce a very specific swollen bruising. I would also expect a scream or shriek after a punch and some indication of a scuffle........none of these are evident....I think he went straight for the throat to silence, then slit the throat to kill, then went to the abdomen to mutilate..

Probably the same M.O. used with Chapman...

Obviously I'm speculating however and could be wrong...



Greg

[Lechmere]

"I can't see Cross hanging around the scene for 10 minutes waiting for Paul."
Yes Tom that is one of the suspicious aspects of Cross’s story.

In my opinion he did not walk down the back streets from Doveton Street to Bucks Row – the quickest route. He went down to Whitechapel Road where he bumped into Polly. She then led him back to Bucks Row and where her killed her. That accounts for the missing minutes.

Greg Baron
The reports do suggest that there was a considerable quantity of blood soaked into her dress and underclothes. That is what I based my suggestion on.
I don’t know whether I have said it before but I also think he may have punched her in the face first. There was bruising to the lower jaw. I know it has been suggested that this could be caused by fingers straying upward during the strangulation. But that would be an inefficient strangulation and I think he did it very quickly and powerfully. The straying fingers would have diminished the pressure on the throat. The moan may be a consequence of a punch.

[Abby Normal]

Groan (or grunt)perhaps came from the killer himself-as he was exherting himself while in the proces of killing or cutting up Nichols.

[Rubyretro]

it would have to be quite a small moan

-

How can you moan 'smally' and still be heard through brick walls from a distance ?

Nope. I can't buy any moans nor groans. Except maybe as something entirely
unconnected and then misremembered.

[Robert]

If any groan or moan was heard, it might have been the murderer when he knew that someone was coming - a sort of "Oh no." But it would have to be quite a small moan - I'm not suggesting the Ripper said "Who the bloody hell is this? I don't belieeeeeve it!"

[Rubyretro]

Perhaps the moan was from someone seeing the prone woman and empathizing in a way.....

Of course, Greg. Or humming.

[GregBaron]

Moan, groan, whine or whimper...

I agree with you both Ruby and Curious, that's why I have a hard time believing there was a moan outside on the pavement...

Good one Curious on whether the woman consulted her dictionary to determine the exact word to describe the sound. Makes me wonder if, in these paupers homes, if anyone had books or dictionaries.........?

One of these Victorian specialists might be able to help but that's off topic.

Perhaps the moan was from someone seeing the prone woman and empathizing in a way.....


Greg

[Rubyretro]

QUOTE] some small involuntary sound that might have been described as a moan for lack of a better word by the witness[/QUOTE

Hi Curious !
.
You've just convinced me that the moans and groans either never happened, or were unconnnected and misinterpreted.

Nobody could hear "small involuntary sound (s)" that far away.

[curious]

I don't think that if someone very strong had their hands around your neck
and was determined to stop you making any noise, that you would be able to groan or moan. Surely you would need some air to emit any sound from your vocal cords ? (please don't experiment this one at home guys).

I agree that if the sound came from Nichols and her killer, it was likely from the killer, a spontaneous, involuntary sound as he perhaps was lowering the body to the ground, or the body sagged against him in death, or as he dropped beside her to begin "his work" some small involuntary sound that might have been described as a moan for lack of a better word by the witness, who may not have had a dictionary handy to decide whether moan or groan or even grunt best suited the sound she heard.

[Rubyretro]

My intuition insinuates that if a moan was heard it was from Polly as she was being strangled..........the signature of this murderer or murderers is that very little noise is heard............

I don't think that if someone very strong had their hands around your neck
and was determined to stop you making any noise, that you would be able to groan or moan. Surely you would need some air to emit any sound from your vocal cords ? (please don't experiment this one at home guys).

[GregBaron]

Can only surmise...

Hi Luke,

I don't think Nichols was beaten by the ripper so obviously I don't think it was heard. As for whether the woman heard the ripper and Nichols below.........I certainly think it possible although I think it more likely she heard Cross and Paul...

The moaning, if real, does give pause, although as I've stated, I don't think Polly did much moaning so if anyone moaned perhaps, as Ruby suggests, it was the killer?

My intuition insinuates that if a moan was heard it was from Polly as she was being strangled..........the signature of this murderer or murderers is that very little noise is heard............



Greg

[Luke111]

Hi Luke111,

I think it would be very difficult to breath or moan when one's vocal chords and wind pipe are severed to the vertebrae. The woman was dead.

The only moaning I could surmise is some sort of pre sex play or possibly a violent under the breath groan while being throttled. Once the throat is sliced all sound ceases except perhaps the gurgling of blood into the gutter...


Greg

My mistake, how could I`ve forgotten that How possible you think it is that she heard Nichols being beaten or else by the ripper?

[GregBaron]

Dreaming...

Well I actually mean't after the attack -I presume that the killer
enjoyed the attack, since he evidently wanted to repeat the performance.

I suppose this is a possibility Ruby but I wouldn't be surprised if the woman simply had an overactive imagination or perhaps heard her husband moaning in his sleep..............an exciting dream perhaps...



Greg