The International Working Mens Association/Wiiliam Wess

[perrymason]

It was I that suggested a culmination scenario involving the Fenians, and you'll note that I offered it "hypothetically".

And something David suggested caught my eye.....in that he agreed with Richard that a copycat scenario doesnt work, particularly because the uterus wasnt a target organ.

I suggest to both of you conversely that the lack of interest in a uterus in room 13 might be some evidence that Jack wasnt in that room. His 2 previous organ thefts had only the uterus in common. Also.... the man who took Annies uterus had some skill, but none is present in room 13.

What caught me about the stuff I posted last night is that it seems right around 1887 after the Trafalgar debacle, the left wing Radicals were being separated from the core non-violent Socialist movement as the mainstream began to see the increasing violence as being counter productive to reaching their goals. Which suggests to me that the more radical fringe of Socialist/Fenian movements were then unencumbered by the conscience and methods of the more peaceful protesters among them.

That seems to me to perhaps set up a radical fringe that may just have had anarchy as a goal at the start of 1888.

My best regards all.

[DVV]

And something David suggested caught my eye.....in that he agreed with Richard that a copycat scenario doesnt work, particularly because the uterus wasnt a target organ.

I suggest to both of you conversely that the lack of interest in a uterus in room 13 might be some evidence that Jack wasnt in that room. His 2 previous organ thefts had only the uterus in common.

Hi Mike,

in the case of a vague copy-cat, I mean a killer similar to Jack, your argument would be valid.
But if Mary has been killed this way to cover a political motive, then her murderer would certainly have taken the uterus, because, as you said, that was what the Ripper was logically supposed to take in the public's mind.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[The Good Michael]

Just to add to the speculation, in The Secret History of the Internationalon page 156, Here are Karl Marx' 5 points on why England must maintain its seat in the International Working Mens Association:
1. England is the only country in which a real
Socialistic revolution can be made.
2. The English people cannot make this revolution.
3. Foreigners must make it for them.
4. The foreign members, therefore, must retain
their seats at the London board.
5. The point to strike on first is Ireland, and
in Ireland they are ready to begin their work.

This is from 1870. The points were passed on to the council in Geneva after the French chapter collapsed.

Interesting is the amalgamation of all things that could create xenophobia in the upper class and in an established government. Jews, socialists, and foreigners would be in control of the English workers, and the Irish problem is the place to begin it all.

Cheers,

Mike

[jason_c]

It was I that suggested a culmination scenario involving the Fenians, and you'll note that I offered it "hypothetically".

And something David suggested caught my eye.....in that he agreed with Richard that a copycat scenario doesnt work, particularly because the uterus wasnt a target organ.

I suggest to both of you conversely that the lack of interest in a uterus in room 13 might be some evidence that Jack wasnt in that room. His 2 previous organ thefts had only the uterus in common. Also.... the man who took Annies uterus had some skill, but none is present in room 13.

What caught me about the stuff I posted last night is that it seems right around 1887 after the Trafalgar debacle, the left wing Radicals were being separated from the core non-violent Socialist movement as the mainstream began to see the increasing violence as being counter productive to reaching their goals. Which suggests to me that the more radical fringe of Socialist/Fenian movements were then unencumbered by the conscience and methods of the more peaceful protesters among them.

That seems to me to perhaps set up a radical fringe that may just have had anarchy as a goal at the start of 1888.

My best regards all.

Perrymason,

Replace Socialist/Fenian with Jewish/Irish and you begin to sound like Sir Robert Anderson.

[Natalie Severn]

Found some more interesting stuff....this is an essay on Fredrick Engels entitled The life of a Revolutionary, by Lindsay German....part 2.....I found it at www.marxists.de/theory....this is regarding the establishment of the Association, referred to as The International, which is what the thread is about, and it has some very interesting segments.....

heres a bit from it....

"The International was an amalgam of very different politics, drawn from its two main national components, the English and French. Its main English support stemmed from the London Trades Council, a body which was beginning to feel its industrial strength after years when the working class had remained quiescent. But it represented only a minority of the working class, the skilled trade unionists, and its leaders – men like the shoemaker George Odger, the cabinet maker Robert Applegarth and the carpenter William Cremer – held politics a fairly long way from Marx’s."

A bit further on...

"Engels also maintained a strong interest in the situation in Ireland, which reached crisis point in the late 1860s. The Fenian movement of Irish nationalists organised a series of armed protests against the British state and so brought home the struggle against Irish colonial oppression to the British ruling class. The huge Irish immigrant population in cities like Manchester and London supported their struggle. The reprisals against the Fenians by the British ruling class were vicious and there was an outcry when the “Manchester Martyrs” were hanged in 1867. There was, however, just as in more recent times, a backlash against the Irish nationalists among English workers, especially when a bombing in Clerkenwell killed ordinary people."

and then this...

"The crucial lesson of the Commune for Marx was that “the working class cannot simply lay hold of the ready-made state machinery, and wield it for its own purposes”. Instead revolutionaries had to be prepared to smash the old capitalist state, which was there to protect the capitalist class and its property, and to establish in its place a workers’ state, based on the most complete form of democracy and on new forms of power: a workers’ militia which could protect the gains of the revolution and ensure that the capitalists did not regain power. This, Engels said, was what he and Marx meant by “the dictatorship of the proletariat”.

This I found interesting...

"A third group of socialists came into being in the mid-1880s: the Fabians. Unlike the other groups the Fabians exclusively attracted the educated middle classes, not workers. At first some of its members were sympathetic to left wing ideas, but the increasing class conflict in evidence in the second half of the 1880s, especially the unemployed riots in 1886 and the fighting in Trafalgar Square in 1887, led their leaders to move consciously away from any flirtation with revolutionary change and towards the theory of gradualism which eventually influenced the Labour Party."

Its starting to shape a new kind of picture for me anyway about how these various labor based movements shared some goals and supported each other throughout the 1880's....perhaps the vast crowds at Trafalgar Square and the harsh military response to the to that point peaceful demonstration was the evidence of that kind of union, and the evidence of some concern about real revolution on the part of the Senior Police.

My best regards all....and thanks again for making the thread work so well.

Thanks a lot for the above information Mike.But I believe "The International" and "The International Working Men"s Club" were two different organisations."The International" grew out of the 1870 Paris commune which was attended by Karl Marx and what you describe about ,"The International" is more or less correct .
The "International Working Men"s Club " however, was a bit more of a mixed bag,some members ,being attracted to Anarchist thought others to early socialist ideas.But most of all members wanted to do somthing to improve the dreadful working conditions that existed in the sweat shops.But there wasnt really the same cohesive ideology there that there was with the communards ---who incidently were all slaughtered before firing squads in Pere La Chaise cemetaryin Paris - if they hadnt already been shot to pieces in the barricades! You can still see the mass of bullet holes from their execution on the West wall of Pere La Chaise cemetary.There are always flowers placed below the bullet marks too .Flowers like there are always at Jim Morrison"s grave,and Edith Piaf"s and Oscar Wilde"s -also buried there.

And what you write about organised labour in the uk is correct.The Labour Party could never buy the terrorist tactics of some of the Irish Nationalists especially some of the Fenians.So United Fronts and sharing platforms with them were criticised.
Best
Norma


As for the

[perrymason]

Perrymason,

Replace Socialist/Fenian with Jewish/Irish and you begin to sound like Sir Robert Anderson.

I think more than Anderson feared the potential "mob" that was growing to the point of bursting in the East End. It I think at least in part contributed to Warrens choice to use the Army, rather than just the Met Police, to deal with the group in Trafalgar Sq.

Mikes last post does show, as does some of the information posted here and on other threads...that anarchy was more and more becoming a divisive item within the various Social movements...which we can see shared some basic common "truths"......and when the radical fringe becomes a potential threat to the goals they set out to achieve, they no longer have the conscience that is a very important aspect of any movement or revolution.

When the radical fringe was still part of the mainstream movements they killed innocent people with a terrorist act of bombing.....without that mainstream conscience or cash flow...what might the radicals do once they are acting on their own behalf.

The ultimate point of all this is to help illustrate what I believe is a simple truth and I know Phil and others share my view on this.....The Ripper crimes may well have led investigators to discover connections or links of some movements or characters within those Socialist and Fenian movements, at which point the information being gathered and the focus of the investigations may have been more a matter of National Security rather than Ghetto Neighborhood Security.

In which case the organizations so charged with National Intelligence and Security may have begun their own investigations.....and if so, those files are within a system that keeps some things secretive in perpetuity.

Its not about anyone covering up anything at this point...its about government bodies that have policies that prevent the sharing of sensitive records with any individual or group. And the probability based on some comments made by various senior Ripper investigators....namely Anderson, Baxter and Macnaghten, that at some point the Fenian cause was thought to be the source of the criminal or criminals at large for the Whitechapel Murders.

I think what this thread shows us is that Socialists and Fenians need not be thought of as independent of each other. Particularly if we are seeing the emergence of a radical fringe of both or either at the start of 1888.

Its also clear that these conflicts within the causes started to cause divisions just after Trafalgar Square.....which means, any new iterations or splinter groups as Phil said would first be active at the beginning of 1888.

Funny coincidence on that timing.

My best regards

[DVV]

Mike, my mother always told me I was a feignant, but that doesn't make me a Ripper.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[perrymason]

Mike, my mother always told me I was a feignant, but that doesn't make me a Ripper.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

I cant find an English translation for feignant, the closest I can find is sluggard...and if thats correct, yes...laziness might exclude some folks.

Cheers David

[Phil Carter]

additions

Hello all,

If I may requote myself, in parts from earlier, in order to follow Michael's last thread posting... combine that posting with this..

If you were sitting at the top, AFTER the tension surrounding Anarchy, Trafalgar Square, The Fenian Plot to kill Balfour, The Parnell commission just around the corner, the hew and cry about the Whitechapel murders from the masses, the newspapers stirrring it up, the fake letters being PUBLISHED, said by many inadvisedly, the place was at social boiling point! Every Tom Dick and Harry being arrested all over the area, undercover policemen, The Queen asking questions and making statements, Parliament in turmoil, Warren's head on the block, amongst MANY others... Would YOU risk putting this info out?

No, I think this was a prevention thing. Say nothing. Sit on it. Don't risk the backlash. A backlash that could ask one thing from the masses...

Again, look at it from the top, the authorities, looking down... thinking...

If we have a LOOSE CANON person with Anarchic or Fenian connections killing ONE woman in this series...if not more, and the Police don't solve it... just how strong ARE this group of people? At what length would they go before they stop? Murderers, bomb plots of Balfour, the Post Office job in the same area?... It would put FEAR on the streets...and with the anarchists making hay of it, the smell of revolution in the air, which WAS feared by Government. (Remember, I believe there were seven (7) attempts on Queen Victoria's life).

This was a very serious situation. Rememeber, in those days, the possibility of revolution was backed up by the thought of collapse of the entire system... they remembered what happened in France. And how the top tier of the system collapsed then.

There was a far greater chance of revolution in those days even though Britain was supposed to be a civilized nation. And the Governments priority was buliding and maintaining THE EMPIRE.Through law and order, and control.

Possibility that the very country being the head of an Empire, whilst under revolution..... the consequences would have sent the possibility of repercussions throughout that Empire. More masses rising up.

The Empire meant everything to the powers that be.

That is why, I believe those Secret Dept document files were sealed THEN in perpituity.
Thats the answer.


best wishes

and a Merry Christmas to all
Phil

[perrymason]

Good reminder of your post Phil, I should have just quoted you in mine.....by the way, heres a picture of William Wess, alias "Woolf Wess"....from libcom.org.

Cheers mates

[Phil Carter]

Hello Michael,

Another nice find. Well done.

I am NOT going to mention "collar and cuffs"...hahahaha

best wishes

Phil

[perrymason]

Just discovered something interesting about Wess's publication The Arbeter Fraint......

"It was almost eight years after this prologue to London Jewish socialism that Morris Winchevsky, who had been inspired by Lieberman's writing back in Russia, launched Britain's first socialist paper aimed at an immigrant readership. The Poylisher Yidl claimed to ‘treat the Jew... as a man, as a Jew, and as a worker'.[xiii] And in 1885, Winchevsky launched a new title, the Arbayter Fraynd (Worker's Friend) ‘to spread true socialism among Jewish workers'.[xiv] Earlier that year a group of Jewish socialists had reconstituted themselves as the International Workingmen's Educational Association, and set up a club in Berner Street off Commercial Road. In 1886 the club took over the running of the Arbayter Fraynd, and Berner Street became the centre of Jewish socialist activity. Clubs and journals were to form the two main axes of organisation for the East End Jewish radicals. The Berner Street Club's rule card grandly stated, ‘The object of this club is, by social and political enlightenment of its Members, the promotion of the intellectual, moral and material welfare of mankind'.[xv]"

What that means to me is that Wess was likely just a Club member when the Club takes over the paper....which to me satisfies my opinion that the Club ran the paper and that Wess as editor was just his job on behalf of the club.

Which means any idealistic or anarchistic propaganda that the paper printed was probably based on the ideologies of the men that ran the Club, rather than just the man that ran the paper.

Heres a bit more from that article...

"Most important of the Berner Street Club's activities, was the role it played in the Great Strike of London Tailors and Sweaters' Victims in 1889. Despite all the difficulties associated with a workshop trade and a constantly replenished pool of labour, East End Jews proved they could play a full part in the New Unionism - the movement that, starting with the Bryant and May match-girls, had shown the potential power of organised unskilled workers across Britain. The strike was well reported in the press, and the support of English workers took concrete form at the public meetings and in the donation from the dockers of £100 left over from their own strike fund. It was a very significant step, but there was still a long way to go and many pitfalls ahead. The Arbayter Fraynd was sadly premature in announcing to workers after the strike, ‘You will now cease to feel strangers in a foreign land, and the great English working-class mass will accept you as brothers in their midst"

Best regards folks

[Archaic]

IWMA & IWMEA & 'The Worker's Friend'

Hi, everyone.

Here's some info on how the IWMA and the IWM Educational Association came together at the Berner St club to produce 'The Worker's Friend'.

Best regards, Archaic

[Phil Carter]

Archaic...that is really good!

The combining of those two organisations and where, and with a common purpose!

thank you!

best wishes

Phil

[perrymason]

Just noticed in that post of yours Archaic, that Philip Kranz was an alias for Jacob Rombro who fled Russia in 1881.

He started with the paper in Dutfields Yard in around 1885.

Found something else interesting......Isaac Kozebrodski, the young man who was a member and a right hand man for Diemshitz...as Tom said it does appear thats his real surname. He is stated as having been in the club when Diemshitz arrives and when Diemshitz comes in via the side door to make sure his wife is ok....Isaac and some others then go back into the yard with him after hearing that he saw a woman lying across the path. Diemshitz and he supposedly go in search of a policeman shortly thereafter, and return with Spooner,... Eagle heads out the other direction, towards Commercial St, to look for the police.

But read this statement allegedly made in a Daily News press interview on Oct 1st..

"I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom".

No mention of him and Diemshitz meeting Spooner, in fact he says he went alone at Diemshitz's request....and he says he saw the cachous and the flower, and also the grapes....but the most interesting thing he says to me, and its also similar to what Spooner says originally.....is that Diemshitz called him into the yard at 12:40am.

In his testimony Spooner said that "he had first arrived at Dutfield's Yard at 25 minutes to 1"......

Diemshitz said that once he realized someone was lying on the ground when he arrived at 1am....

"He went straight into the club to see if his wife was there, and seeing that she was, he told her (and several others who were in the room) of his find, but said that he could not tell if the woman was drunk or dead. Getting a candle, he went back out into the yard with Isaac Kozebrodsky and Morris Eagle and was able to see that there was blood on the ground.

The three men did not touch the body, but immediately set off to find a police officer, Diemschutz and Kozebrodsky running south towards Fairclough Street and then in the direction of Grove Street, shouting for help (Eagle ran north to Commercial Road). They did not find an officer and turned back after passing Edward Spooner who joined them on their return to Dutfield's Yard[3]. In his witness testimony, Diemschutz claimed to have not noticed the position of her hands and yet in a subsequent press interview, stated that "her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other".

I find those 3 statements troubling. In one, Isaac's, the time is well before 1am and Kozebrodski is called out into the yard by the already present Louis Diemshitz. He is then asked by Diemshitz to go off by himself to get the police. He says he saw the flower the cachous and grapes.

Spooner says he saw 2 men, and that he entered the yard with them around 12:35-40am. He notices the paper in her hand....wax paper for the cachous....and the flower. No grapes.

Louis however says that he arrived at 1am, ran inside to get help, went with Isaac to look for help, and that she had the flower, the cachous and the grapes.

Thoughts?

Best regards all.