The International Working Mens Association/Wiiliam Wess

[Natalie Severn]

Phil, It really is a bit of a misconception all this Fenian/Anarchist Socialist stuff of 1888. Its true that later on eg- in the early 1890"s,one or two of the leaders from the Irish Republican Brotherhood did share a platform with the Socialists and Anarchists and formed the occasional united front over certain anti -British Government issues but in general , the Anarchist and Socialist movements as such ,in the uk anyway- were at a very early stage of development in England.
In the Fenian movement there was a longer history of organised struggle but there was a terrific lot of internal fighting followed by splits into tiny splinter groups one of which, calling itself " The Invincibles" was responsible for the Phoenix Park Murders of British Politicians.But while some of the Fenians did get down to business despite a lot of quarreling with each other and splits,the English Anarchists by contrast couldnt organise a piss up in a brewery--- let alone be "covering up "for some "loose canon" amongst their ranks who was out murdering "unfortunates" in the East End!
I have wondered myself ,in the past ,whether Kate Eddowes might have done a bit of
" information passing" in pubs- regarding Fenians and then got caught out getting tips from the other side,its possible.....but it wouldnt have got her murdered by Jack the Ripper. The same could be said of Liz Stride and Mary Kelly.If they wanted to silence them they would surely have found other,less conspicuous means ?
Best

[Tom_Wescott]

Okay, so I got the same lecture Monty and Rob got. I'm in good company.

I've been told you're a bit miffed that the 1895 Press Record lists 'The Worker's Friend' as being published in Hebrew, rather than Yiddish, which somehow affects your personal theories,

I would recommend you take anything your source says from this point on with a large grain of salt. I've not communicated with anyone at all about this issue.

I'm happy for you that you own some copies of the IWMA paper, but I don't know what that has to do with anything-

Well, if you'd think with your brain and not your ego, why the **** would I need to theorize what language the paper is written in if I have a copy I could look at?

And for the last time...It's the International Working Men's Educational Society...not the IWMA which is a completely different organization with a similar name.

And to think I was just defending you only yesterday.

You say you want to exchange info, ideas, participation, etc. But on any thread you seek out to alienate any posters to that topic who have already done the homework. That's a very odd approach to 'getting at the truth'. My advice is to stop taking yourself so damn seriously.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Look. Last night 5 or 6 or 7 people worked frantically with each other on this thread. ALL 5 tried to ADD something to it. Whether we have a different background towards the whole conclusion or not, is irrelevant. We ALL contributed.
Now, I dont know about the rest of you, but throwing out personal whacks, is the very opposite of what this is about. And exactly why, in the past, people have become distrustful.

THIS IS A WORLD WIDE PUBLIC FORUM. There are people reading these very words, all over the world. When a personal remark about the character of one is printed, those world wide readers are given impressions. That isnt right, or fair. So I suggest we drop the personal insults.

We did something positive, Damned positive. Lets keep it that way.

best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Phil,

I agree. But when posters start lying about me and my motives, I have to beg off the discussion.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Archaic]

Tom, this is ridiculous. I have a right to "take myself seriously"; these are serious historical subjects which we are discussing.
I'm sure few of us would even be here on this forum if we thought these subjects didn't matter.

You advise me to "take my sources with a large grain of salt".
I assure that I always do, including when that "source" is yourself.

No matter how annoyed you are with me, it's very ungentlemanly of you to mention the names of others who have not asked you to do so.
Now you've done it twice. I doubt that they will appreciate it.

What in the world does "posters who have already done the homework" mean?

WHOSE homework?

As anyone who has ever received an education knows, part of the educational process is doing one's own homework,
not relying on the homework of others.

Any field of study or "body of knowledge" is always in a state of further development.

Even long-established "facts" are questioned, reconsidered, and re-assessed in the course of time.

Unless of course people assume that they already know absolutely everything there is to know about a subject- in which case fresh inquiry is stifled, their current position becomes hopelessly entrenched, and that field of study is rendered stagnant.

Best regards, Archaic

[Phil Carter]

Phil, It really is a bit of a misconception all this Fenian/Anarchist Socialist stuff of 1888. Its true that later on eg- in the early 1890"s,one or two of the leaders from the Irish Republican Brotherhood did share a platform with the Socialists and Anarchists and formed the occasional united front over certain anti -British Government issues but in general , the Anarchist and Socialist movements as such ,in the uk anyway- were at a very early stage of development in England.
In the Fenian movement there was a longer history of organised struggle but there was a terrific lot of internal fighting followed by splits into tiny splinter groups one of which, calling itself " The Invincibles" was responsible for the Phoenix Park Murders of British Politicians.But while some of the Fenians did get down to business despite a lot of quarreling with each other and splits,the English Anarchists by contrast couldnt organise a piss up in a brewery--- let alone be "covering up "for some "loose canon" amongst their ranks who was out murdering "unfortunates" in the East End!
I have wondered myself ,in the past ,whether Kate Eddowes might have done a bit of
" information passing" in pubs- regarding Fenians and then got caught out getting tips from the other side,its possible.....but it wouldnt have got her murdered by Jack the Ripper. The same could be said of Liz Stride and Mary Kelly.If they wanted to silence them they would surely have found other,less conspicuous means ?
Best

Hello Nats,

Thanks for that. At the moment of writing, I disagree. I believe the political and social turmoil at the time really DID have an effect on all this. I believe the newspapers contributed, some for, some against. I think that Anderson's involvement in the Secret Dep, and his involvement in this case, are crucial.
For YEARS he has been pilloried for his possible ineptness/certain religious fervour/possible lies/possible non action/possible cover ups/statements of KNOWING/ the police knew all along/ etc etc etc.
The Home office were in posession of knowledge that the Fenians were suspected. From at least one person at the centre of this. But that info was hushed up. Why? Because, I believe, of the effect.

We may certainly disagree, but the simple one fact that could answer ALL of this business, is that the answer MAY LIE in the Secret Dept Files in Kew. According to your good self, there is apparently a file entitled "The Whitechapel murders" amongst them. Umm, If Fenianism and anarchy had NOTHING to do with this, why would the Secret Dept have a file pertaining to the Whitechapel murders?

I wish you and yours a Happy Christmas

best wishes

Phil

[perrymason]

Hi all,

When an idea takes some root with people that doesnt mean that each tree will grow the same nor that it will bear the same fruit......which means each of us is entitled to draw our own conclusions about what something really means.....but for the sake of the study itself, none can be considered as truly viable or applicable until proof is found to support the contentions. There wioll always be a burden of proof that must be met, and despite my own proclivity towards suggesting speculative scenarios, I fully understand that they are really just my opinions until I can find supporting evidence.

Thats I think where this Fenian/Anarchist idea warrants merit....as Lynn said earlier,....it is worth looking into further based on what we do know now.

I thought we should all cool down a sec.

Cheers and best regards all.

[Archaic]

Umm, If Fenianism and anarchy had NOTHING to do with this, why would the Secret Dept have a file pertaining to the Whitechapel murders?

Hi, Phil. The fascinating thing about this case is that its facts are open to so many differing interpretations.

One possible explanation for the existence of a Secret Dept. file on the Whitechapel Murders is that the question of whether Fenians and Anarchists might have been involved was considered and investigated in 1888.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they found such a connection; the existence of a file simply indicates that they considered one- and rightly so, given the very volatile political climate of the day.

I believe that on another thread Stewart explained that the Secret Dept. NEVER declassifies or destroys its files.

Therefore if the Govt. ever even considered the possibly of a political motive for the Whitechapel Murders- which I'm sure we all agree they must have done- they would have created a secret file, preserved it, and kept it secret right up to the present day, regardless of its contents.

That's my personal take on the question you posed, but of course everyone is welcome to draw their own conclusions.

Cheers, Archaic

[Natalie Severn]

Well Phil,all I can say is that if there is a file at Kew with "The Whitechapel Murders" written on it, I for one have never seen it but then why should I have. I understand from one or two others that there may be one,but in my opinion this would be more than likely to implicate Tumblety,whose was born in the part of Ireland where some famous Fenians came from. He seems to have had strong sympathies with the Irish Republican cause,going by that press interview Tumblety gave that RJ Palmer posted awhile back.Tumblety may well have been a double agent-he died very rich for a man from such humble origins.His name was also mentioned as someone to watch out for by one of the CID men based in Le Havre.
But none of this proves that either Tumblety or one of the the Fenians were Jack the Ripper.Littlechild and co may well have "suspected" him of being------but it doesnt mean they were right and even if they did suspect him- I think they were wrong.We know he was suspected of all sorts of crimes and dark deeds including being JtR but really Tumblety as Jack the Ripper-it doesnt add up for me!
Best
Norma

[Debra A]

Thanks Debs,

So who is THIS John Turner of the IWMC?
The only reason I thought of the nom de plume was the name in the Portland prison record, but no sign of Mr Grande in prison.. or have I missed something from the 1901 census? Plus he changed his name ad hoc.

best wishes, and a very Merry Xmas to you!

Phil

Hi Phil,
I'm not sure who that John Turner is, but I will try and find out.
Legrand was in Parkhurst prison in 1901 and not Portland as the article said, and this, coupled with the Belgian nationality are the only discrepancies, French, Belgian, Dane, German, LeGrand has probably been described in various sources as all those nationalities so that wouldn't be a major problem anyway, and he had done some time in Portland Prison, granted it was 10 years earlier.


...and, Merry Christmas to you too.

[perrymason]

Nats,

Trying this reasoning......some murders completely unconnected with any social movement capture the nations attention...and direct it to a small single mile stretch of London that contained an abundance of dissatisfied emigrants, among them anarchist Socialists and self rule Irishmen. The worst slums in the UK due to overcrowding and rampant crime and poverty. The breeding ground for dissent.

IF.....at any time, some evidence was linked with or suggested some connections that existed between the man or men that committed the Ripper murders and the Capital Crimes being planned by the Fenians, or some anarchist revolution by the Socialists,....that then becomes a matter of political importance. A threat to the nation. And as such, would no longer be within the mandate or responsibilities of the Met Police or City police to investigate.

Thats a Home Office matter, and/or a Special Branch Investigation.

The single greatest threat that existed in Whitechapel to the economic stability and safety of the residents during the Fall of 1888 wasnt Jack the Ripper. He might have represented the threat that exists when large numbers of people are unable to work or feed their families due to what they perceive is a prejudicial system....the eruption of violence could have come from many different sources that Fall.

No-ones saying DR T killed the Canonicals for Fenian reasons, no-one saying DR T had anything to do with the Ripper crimes, but what I am some others are contending is that the socio-political environment and the violence embedded in those kinds of struggles may in some form appear within the Ripper murders.

For example,...hypothetically.. IF Mary Kelly had any connection to Irish self rule factions and had endangered a mission or objective they were working on by saying too much to some people about what she knew, I could see her being a risk that had to be eradicated.

Would a Fenian anarchist kill her in that manner to show what happens to a "rat", or would someone cut her to pieces because she was a blabbermouth....not reasonably, no....but if she was to die because of some connection she had with very dangerous movement and men,....the killers might be inclined to commit the murder in the fashion of a unknown killer stalking the area who everyone assumes is killing because he is mentally ill.

My best regards Norma, and Happy Holidays Lass.

[Phil Carter]

Debs, Norma, Archaic,

Thank you all for those responses. Each and every one has helped my train of thought.

And incase I should have left anyone out... I sincerely say..

Merry Christmas to you all.

Im going to make my hand me down eggnog now... go to that thread and lick your lips!

best wishes, as always

Phil

[Debra A]

Le Grand was not Irish, but he has some involvement with the Fenians that Debra A and I are trying to flesh out.

Hi Tom,
He possibly had some involvement in the Parnell Inquiry, but it's hard to tell which side he was on.
That book is mind numbingly boring btw!

[perrymason]

Hi Tom,
He possibly had some involvement in the Parnell Inquiry, but it's hard to tell which side he was on.
That book is mind numbingly boring btw!

Piggott seems to be a name that appears in both Socialist and Fenian matters at that time Debs, has he any relationship that you know of with LeGrand at all?

My best regards

[Natalie Severn]

OK Phil, enjoy the eggnog !

Mike,
If any of these women had upset them to that extent,wouldnt they have been dealt with in a more straightforward way? There are a few punishment "examples" from those days I can think of,involving murder, but none involve the Ripper"s gruesome involvement with his victim"s body parts.
All the Best
Norma