The International Working Mens Association/Wiiliam Wess

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=perrymason;113423]Nice post Phil, some interesting data in there.

It would seem that its feasible and in fact reasonable to suggest that the socio-political climate at the time of these killings almost ensured that at some point throughout that Fall we would have investigations into the Ripper crimes on many fronts including National Security.


In fact Mike, Mystic Meg herself could never have foreseen so many variations on a theme and the thousands of suspects of all ages and from every walk of life the case would throw up!

[perrymason]

I keep thinking of that line you hear all the time in the movies, in one memorable instance uttered by a Mexican rebel inside the Alamo fighting with the Texians against the Mexican Army and Santa Ana, explaining in Spanish why he fights with these gringos who clearly want everything for themselves....

"..... an enemy of my enemy is my friend ".

Strange bedfellows and all that kind of stuff.

Cheers Nats, Lynn, all.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

It appears that Le Grand has been definitively identified—

http://karenkpoulin1.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!1D0DB493901F72EF!2247.entry

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

Folks,

This is Karen Trenouth's page. She once had a blog 'proving' that Ivor Edwards and myself were one and the same. She's a nutcase. Her Le Grand posts are yet another attempt at her to avenge herself upon me for being so awesome. Debra A unearthed these newspaper reports 2 years ago. Other than the fact that this Carlos fellow used the alias 'Grandy', there's no reason to suppose he and Le Grand were the same man.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Debra A]

Here's the said post, made nearly three years ago now on JTR forums, where there are 41+ pages of research devoted to LeGrand.

>>09 03 2007
Posted by Debra Arif

One of the most riveting aspects of the case for me too. This is just to save any unnecessary travelling down the same road, but there was a Charles Grandy, an alias of a well known crook in the US, aka William Wallace, Howard Adams, John Howe, Carlos Grandy, Carlo Sciscovitch. He committed a number of frauds (including bank fraud) on the continent and also was implicated in the unsolved murder of Lydia Chapman in london in the 1870's. I think this is the person the US papers were thinking of when they wrote their piece. I have followed it through to the end and found that Siscovitch was banged up when LG was at large, but I cannot be entirely certain.

Oh, he was really Ivan Siscovitch at the end of it all, I forgot to mention that<<

[perrymason]

I found that bit about the counterfeiting interesting since I found in the Old Bailey records one Charles Grand being in court for that same reason.

Best regards all

[Debra A]

Michael, LeGrand was convicted in 1891 at the Old bailey of counterfeiting and fraud. He got 7 years, on top of the 20 years he got for sending the threatening letter in his other 1891 trial. The investigations for both crimes were conducted simultaneously.

Ivan Siscovitch, alias Charles Grandy, the US forger was captured and imprisoned in May 1878 in the US.
Charles LeGrand, who also used the alias Charles Grandy was convicted under the name Christian Nelson in 1877 and was serving a sentence (at least part of which was at Portland Prison) until 1884.

[perrymason]

Michael, LeGrand was convicted in 1891 at the Old bailey of counterfeiting and fraud. He got 7 years, on top of the 20 years he got for sending the threatening letter in his other 1891 trial. The investigations for both crimes were conducted simultaneously.

Ivan Siscovitch, alias Charles Grandy, the US forger was captured and imprisoned in May 1878 in the US.
Charles LeGrand, who also used the alias Charles Grandy was convicted under the name Christian Nelson in 1877 and was serving a sentence (at least part of which was at Portland Prison) until 1884.

Tied that up in a nice bow Debs.

My best regards

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

I found the below very interesting and illuminating.

There is no reason to presume that this connnection to Anarchists, Fenians and the like is irrelevant. And in my opinion it is about time more attention was paid towards it. Serriously respected historians and researchers are looking more and more into the socio/political atmosphere of Whitechapel in 1888, and their link to the Whitchapel murders.

I wish you all a Happy New Year, whatever your opinions.


best wishes

Phil


Department of Sociological Studies, University of Sheffield, Elmfield Bldg, Northumberland Rd, Sheffield, S10 2TU, UK

Published online: 10 July 2008

Abstract

In the decades before the First World War, London worried about anarchist outrages, and particularly, about Jews said to instigate them. Jewish anarchists were rumoured to have been responsible for the ‘ripper’ murders in Whitechapel (1888), an attempt to blow up the Royal Observatory at Greenwich Park (1894) and the Houndsditch murders (1910)/Sidney Street affair (1911). Jews were a visible population in the East End, and editors, MPs, and police authorities offered Jewishness to explain the ‘who’ and ‘why’ of anarchist violence. Jews were also thought to have the capacity to become invisible, ‘outsiders’ who could pass for ‘insiders’. In the radical press, and fictionalised accounts in novels such as Conrad’s The Secret Agent, the image of the Jewish anarchist became that of agent provocateur paid by police to infiltrate and undermine the movement. Jews were said to operate behind-the-scenes, manipulating the economy and political structure. The invisible hand of the market and the invisible hand of anarchism were attached to a Jewish body.


About the author: Paul Knepper (Ph.D. Arizona State) is Senior Lecturer in the Department of Sociological Studies, University of Sheffield, and Research Fellow, Centre for Jewish Studies, University of Manchester. Recent publications include ```Jewish Trafficking” and London Jews in the Age of Migration’, Journal of Modern Jewish Studies (2008); ‘British Jews and the Racialisation of Crime in the Age of Empire’ British Journal of Criminology (2007); ‘Michael Polanyi and Jewish Identity’ Philosophy of the Social Sciences (2005); ‘Polanyi, “Jewish Problems”, and Zionism’ Tradition and Discovery (2005).

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Phil,
Perhaps we need to be a little bit careful when discussing this sort of thing here as some people who read these boards are from suspect sites and are only too delighted to smear Jewish people for everything that happened that was bad in the LVP.I am not saying this chap is doing that,just that we have to be mindful of these things,
All the Best for 2010 Phil,

Norma

[Phil Carter]

I agree Nats...indeed I do, I am appalled at such behaviour... I am the FIRST to stand up against such people.

But this, as I pointed out, is a well respected historian. And is directly related to Whitechapel 1888.

Happy New Year Norma... its past 12 here!

all the best

Phil

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Phil.Actually I thought it fine when I read it,as I said its just these oddballs that come on here from other sites that we have to watch out for.
Cheers ,Have a Great New Year Phil!
Norma

[Archaic]

Hi, Natalie, just wanted to say that I agree with you and Phil. Prejudice utterly revolting to me.

Happy New Year, Archaic

[Phil Carter]

Hello Norma,

One of the sad things about today's society I'm afraid, is that any comment can be turned around and used as propoganda. And sadly, if we mix in anarchists, the jewish community and the Fenian problem in Whitechapel together with JTR, it IS a "hot potato"...even for some to even contemplate it....

Those files at Kew could help a hell of a lot. 121 years.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hi, Natalie, just wanted to say that I agree with you and Phil. Prejudice utterly revolting to me.

Happy New Year, Archaic

Ditto Archaic...utterly revolting

Happy New Year!

best wishes to you and your loved ones,

Phil