"Site" unseen?

[lynn cates]

whodunnit

Hello Observer. Was there any suggestion that there were NO cachous? It does not seem too important who took them, but perhaps I am missing an important point?

The best.
LC

[Observer]

It's obvious that Liz Stride had cachous on her person Lynn, and you are correct in assuming that it's not important who took them from her, one of the doctors is mistaken however. It seems Dr Philips was more observant as to the position of the cachous, he stating thay were lodged between the first finger and thumb. Dr Blackwell stated that it was he who spilled them though. Could it be a bit of both, Blackwell noticing they were there, moving the hand and spilling them, and Dr Philips actually removing them. If this is the case then it's possible that Liz Stride went down with the cachous firmly in place, not spilling a single one.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

struggle

Hello Observer. your statement:

"it's possible that Liz Stride went down with the cachous firmly in place, not spilling a single one."

is, of course, obviously the case. That is why she must be taken down quickly and without a struggle.

The best.
LC

[Observer]

Hi Lynn

I made a suggestion a long time back, namely, in the initial struggle the killer encased Liz Strides hand complete with cachous in his own, she attempting to strike him with that fist. He then gets her to the ground and holding her hand all the while he cuts her throat, the cachous remaining in her hand. There is one problem with this, namely the two bruises below her collar bones, how could these be administred with his one remaining free hand, however could he have knelt on her momentarily?

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

shoulders

Hello Observer. The shoulder bruises seem to fit with nothing--Jack or domestic.

I wonder if Liz were clutching the cachous if she would be taking a swing at her assailant? Would they not come out? Frankly, I can't say. I presume she could and that his hand over hers would keep them in place.

The best.
LC

[smezenen]

Fisherman writes,
"Her position in the yard tells us that she seemingly was on her way out as the killer grabbed her by her scarf from behind. He turned the scarf sharply to the left, sending Stride falling backwards and to her left, cut her neck as she was on her way down, let go of the body as he had finished the cut, and her blood had only a split second to gush out before she landed upon the pool forming on the ground."



If the killer where using the scarf as a garote wouldn't that slow the flow of blood and thereby reduce the amount of blood spray from the cut? This is of course assuming the neck was cut above the scarf. This may also explain bruises below her shoulder blades if he where putting his knee into her back for leverage.

[harry]

Perhaps a possible answer to the cachous,is that they were grpped in the hand while the hand was in the pocket of her coat or dress,and in the split seconds she died she pulled the hand from the pocket still gripping the cachous.

[Observer]

Hi Lynn

I think the doctors implied that the bruising below the collar bones happened during the assault on Liz Stride, consequently they have to be addressed.

all ther best

Observer

[lynn cates]

bruises

Hello Observer. I agree. They must be accounted for.

I wonder if there is any suggestion as to WHEN they were obtained? Perhaps BEFORE she entered the yard, or even earlier in the evening?

The best.
LC

[Fisherman]

Smezenen asks:

"If the killer where using the scarf as a garote wouldn't that slow the flow of blood and thereby reduce the amount of blood spray from the cut? This is of course assuming the neck was cut above the scarf."

It says, Smezenen, in the inquest, that "In the neck there was a long incision which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf", so it would seem that this gainsays your suggestion.
One can of course speculate that the scarf itself stopped some of the bleeding, but the reasonable thing to believe would be that if it was pulled tightly, it would not slide down the neck and cover the wound.

At any rate, I think that if Stride was cut during her fall, more or less, then we need not look any further for an explanation to why there was no bloodspurts scattered over the ground and walls, than to the clear possibility that she fell to her left from the outset, meaning that the potential gush of blood was directed to the ground beneath her, at the spot where her neck ended up after the fall.

As for the bruising below the collar bones, two possible explanations spring to mind:

1. If there was some sort of a row in the yard, BS man may have gripped her over her shoulders, with his thumbs against the bruised area, during the argument.

2. They may have come about as she was thrown to the ground outside the yard. The pushing - if pushing it was - could have been inflicted at these areas.

The best,
Fisherman

[Observer]

Hi Harry

Perhaps a possible answer to the cachous,is that they were grpped in the hand while the hand was in the pocket of her coat or dress,and in the split seconds she died she pulled the hand from the pocket still gripping the cachous.

That is a possibility Harry. I seem to remembe being told (while discussing the assault as witnessed by Schwartz) that the cachous clenched in Liz Strides hand was not a problem, with regard to the assault that is, it could be explained. Well if Schwartz is describing reality with regard to the assault then there is a problem reconciling the two.

Hi Lynn

I can't find any contempory explanation for the bruising, surely someone at the time voiced an opinion though.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

muddled thinking

Hello Observer. I just checked my A-Z under "Phillips." (pp. 352 & 3) He claimed she was seized by the shoulders and pressed to the ground.

The A-Z cannot make sense of his account and conjecture that the good doctor may evince muddle thinking here. (At one point, they describe a "geometrical impossibility.")

The best.
LC

[Observer]

Hi Lynn

I have the A-Z somewhere, I'll have to fish it out!

Poor Philips seems to be taking a bit of a battering of late, he was H division police surgeon however, and he saw those bruises first hand, if he stated that she was seized by the shoulders and pressed to the ground I can't see why the A-Z accused him of muddled thinking, sounds pretty straightforward to me. Was it the manner in which he gave his evidence I wonder, i.e. confusing to the listener?

It would be interesting to learn how often Dr Philips was used by the Met Police prior to the murders. Was he experienced in observing the results of violent crime, if so shouldnt we be taking him more seriuosly?

all the best

Observer

[perrymason]

Hi all,

Just so we are not hung up on Liz Stride in connection with the thread premise......I dont see her as a Ripper victim for one, and 2, there would be no need to sedate her prior to the attack....he choked and cut her likely at the same time, the overall attack lasting maybe 2 seconds.

Victims 1, 2 and 4 however were flat on their backs and not resisting when they are killed.

That to me signals a loss of consciousness inflicted by a choke hold of some kind.. as smezenen has described, ..or some sort of quick acting sedative or perhaps something that might create a short term paralysis.

Anyone with any medical knowledge......since blood or tissues could not be tested for the presence of all drugs, and since the throats of the victims I mentioned were severely cut, ....could an injection site have been missed...particularly if it was not arterial?

All the best

[lynn cates]

time

Hello Observer. Mike's right about this thread. But let me say that, if Liz has bruised shoulders (and she did), I think they would look the same whether she were in an altercation a few hours before, or being straddled at Dutfield's yard.

The best.
LC