"Site" unseen?

[perrymason]

Glad you weighed in smezenen, as you noted Im sure I alluded to your technique earlier.

In connection with Mikes reasonable skepticism that these types of lethal or near lethal holds would be something that few people would know of at that time, its worth noting that there were in the immediate area experienced and trained soldiers, there were multicultural influences in the area that had introduced new shapes of weaponry to the criminals perhaps also some combat techniques, and a hold might still require a choke first or a punch to the face...as is a possibility in at least one Canonical murder, maybe 2, ...so one might not eliminate the need for the other.

He still has to grab the victim correctly for it to work.

I still wonder though, could a recent injection site be destroyed in evidence by a dramatic wound being inflicted on that area afterward?

Best regards all

[lynn cates]

mea culpa

Hello S. Thanks for explaining. Mea culpa. I thought that was from "pro wrestling." I appreciate your legitimate source.

Thanks again.

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

dumb ripper; smart ripper

Hello Mike. I see no reason to have a "dumb" ripper without knowledge of basic anatomy and physiology. Such knowledge should suffice to apply a choke hold.

Incidentally, a deep neck wound would cover "a multitude of sins."

The best.
LC

[Observer]

H iMike

I still wonder though, could a recent injection site be destroyed in evidence by a dramatic wound being inflicted on that area afterward?

Best regards all

Are we talking syringe here?

all the best

Observer

[Observer]

Sorry just read post one. Neglected to read the first post which set the tone of the thread. You do mean injection by syringe of some anesthetic substance. Why a syringe? Strangulation would suffice would it not, and there is evidence of strangulation. How quickly would a victim be rendered unconcious by the use of a drug?

all the best

[Sam Flynn]

It was Wynne Baxters summation at the Nichols Inquest using the assumptions made by Phillips during the Inquest for Annie Chapman that linked the killer of Annie with the killer of Polly

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggg ggggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!

(Just thought I'd get that over with.)

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

So by association Polly, Annie and Kates killer were thought by most to have some degree of skill and knowledge, I am not sure Phillips suggesting an imitator automatically infers one without skill or knowledge

It may be worth noting, though - in light of your references to Baxter - that his summation at the Stride inquest included a statement that "unskilled injuries" were inflicted upon Eddowes, and that she may have fallen victim to an imitator. Since Phillips was clearly his primary source, it seems likely that both men subscribed to the same view, with Phillips influencing Baxter as he had done at the Chapman inquest.

Liz's killer knew where major arteries were on the neck

We don't know that, to be fair, and the partial severence of the carotid artery would suggest otherwise - to me, at least.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

We don't know that, to be fair, and the partial severence of the carotid artery would suggest otherwise - to me, at least.

Besides, one doesn't require any great knowledge or expertise to know that, if you cut someone's neck deeply, you're probably going to cause a fatal injury. Yet, here again, we have the laser-keen mind of Bagster Phillips concluding that Stride's killer had showed "some knowledge [of] where to cut... to produce a fatal result". (Hint: you cut the throat, and you do it deep. Apparently, only an expert would know that )

[Ben]

Exactly, Gareth.

It's like the astronaut with no idea how to operate a rocket:

Press all the buttons, and eventually you'll find the "go" button!

Just so with a deep through cut. Sever the entire thing, and by process of quick elimination, you're guaranteed to cut the "right" artery.

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

I thought I implied the same sort of response the way I phrased Lizs murder, Ben and Sam.

I was thinking about the injection Observer because I recently read that intramuscular and subcutaneous injections for the administration of medications had only in recent years been used by physicians, and I didnt see it reasonable to look for a method like a syringe that would had to have been injected into an artery. He could have stabbed a syringe into the neck I am assuming, and have some rapid acting immobilizer create the needed calm for him to have been able to get them on the ground. Would that then be hidden by the throat gashes?

Thats what Im wondering about. Youll note that in the case Im suggesting, they dont have to be unconscious, just unable to move. Because Ive also wondered if the actual killing part is as mechanical for him as it seems....I wonder if he wanted their eyes open when he cuts the throat.

Best regards all.

[smezenen]

In connection with Mikes reasonable skepticism that these types of lethal or near lethal holds would be something that few people would know of at that time,

Best regards all

Hello PM,
I disagree, European wresling was very popular starting in the early 18th century it was widely seen as a gentlemans sport in many forms including Greco- roman , collar-and-elbow, and especialy "catch as catch can" or simpily "Catch" wrestling which is a style of Folk wrestling made popular by the wrestlers of traveling carnivals who incorporated submission holds, or "hooks", into their wrestling to increase their effectiveness against their opponents. There was also Lancashire stlye wrestling that was first practiced in 1700, considered to be the foundation of "catch" wrestling. The style included groundwork with choke holds and had the reputation of being an extremely fierce and violent sport. Some rules where even put into place trying to safeguard the wrestlers from serious injury. For instance, there was a ban on breaking an opponent's bones. Wrestling was commonly practiced as a form physical conditioning at many of the athletic clubs in London during the Victorian period.

[The Good Michael]

Smez,

So there was a wrestler walking around the East End putting people in submission holds? Didn't the tights and long hair give him away?

Just joking. These wrestling styles you mentioned were not known for submission holds that would render someone unconscious in seconds. It is entirely possible that there were a few individuals who knew some tricks, but to place one in Whitechapel as a murderer of women, would be folly in my opinion. If you can submit some recorded incidents of sleeper holds used on innocents, I'll rethink my position.

Cheers,

Mike

[smezenen]

Smez,

So there was a wrestler walking around the East End putting people in submission holds? Didn't the tights and long hair give him away?

Just joking. These wrestling styles you mentioned were not known for submission holds that would render someone unconscious in seconds. It is entirely possible that there were a few individuals who knew some tricks, but to place one in Whitechapel as a murderer of women, would be folly in my opinion. If you can submit some recorded incidents of sleeper holds used on innocents, I'll rethink my position.

Cheers,

Mike

Mike,
You are read things into my post that I do not intend So I will state it as plainly as I can. I do not suggest that a professional wrestler was Jack The Ripper, I do suggest that wrestling and choke holds would have been known to people thru observation of wrestlers at such places as athletic clubs, sporting events, and carnivals. All places where gentlemen would gather to watch and even participate in the events. There many carnivals that featured an event where the spectators where challenged to try to beat the champion for a cash prize. Of the different styles of wrestling I mentioned "catch" wrestling is most certinaly known for submission holds, in fact thats why it appealed to the carnival spectators and Lancashire style wrestling was peticularly brutal. May suggest some reading on the subject, try the book written by Brian Jewell, 'Heritage of the Past - Sports and Games'. you could aslo gain some basic knowledge at this website http://ezinearticles.com/?British-Ma...ing&id=2353549

Once again im not saying Jack was a wrestler but that he could have learned a choke hold by watching one, or he could have been a soldier/ex-soldier that was trained in hand to hand fighting.

[karensa]

but I dont hear anyone addressing that we do have to have something, some method or technique, that allowed him to get grown women on the ground on their backs without resistance.


Seriously?

They were prostitutes. That something would be "cash." and would get her on her back in 0.2 seconds - as given her job description.

Then there's the always feasible method of brandishing a weapon with the hand covering the mouth and the threat of death if they make a sound - and by then most of them would be thinking ripper time...

Getting hookers on their backs without resistance would be the absolute LEAST of his problems and wouldn't require a great deal of rocket science to work out how to accomplish. Getting away whilst covered in blood and whether or not he could be identified at all seems to me would be his big concern.


i.e. in the words of Ton Loc "I need 50 dollars to make you holler, I get paid for doin the wild thing"


As for swelling, that's pretty typical in the death process. It could be the time of death was more off than not...and swelling was post mortem - unless I misunderstood the context somewhere.

[smezenen]

but I dont hear anyone addressing that we do have to have something, some method or technique, that allowed him to get grown women on the ground on their backs without resistance.


Seriously?

They were prostitutes. That something would be "cash." and would get her on her back in 0.2 seconds - as given her job description.

Then there's the always feasible method of brandishing a weapon with the hand covering the mouth and the threat of death if they make a sound - and by then most of them would be thinking ripper time...

Getting hookers on their backs without resistance would be the absolute LEAST of his problems and wouldn't require a great deal of rocket science to work out how to accomplish. Getting away whilst covered in blood and whether or not he could be identified at all seems to me would be his big concern.


i.e. in the words of Ton Loc "I need 20 dollars to make you holler, I get paid for doin the wild thing"

Hello karensa,
I agree with you that this topic is gettng way "over-thinked" and the most likely method was the most probable. However In Victorian England,sEast end slum I understand most of these "transactions" occuring outdoors would have been done in the standing position with the man either behind and the woman bent over or the man to the side while the woman lifted a leg. It was done this way due to the filth on the ground, so the killer would have had to have some other techique to get them quitely to the ground.