"Site" unseen?

[Fisherman]

Observer writes:

"to Fisherman, although it's theoretically possible I do not agree with Dave Yosts theory"

Thatīs your call, Observer, and you are entitled to it, of course!

But donīt leave three things unconsidered here:

1. The cachous. If she was brought to the ground by her killer first, and cut only afterwards - why did she hold on to the cachous as she fell, instead of using her left arm to fend the fall off? It is pretty obvious that she fell on her left side, as proven by the mud and dirt being present on no other surface of her clothing than on that very side.
My suggestion is that she clenched her fist around the cachous as she was simultaneously grabbed hard by the scarf and cut. I see no other logical explanation to why she held on to the pack of sweetmeats.

2. The position in the yard. It would make it quite awkward to cut her the way she was cut. An explanation could be that the killer grabbed her by the hair and lifted the head as he cut - but if he did so, then this proves that he was much in control as he performed the cut. In spite of this, he did not cut ā la Jack.

3. When Stride was found, P C Lamb described her position by saying that it looked as if she had been gently placed on the ground. Apparently, she gave the impression of lying as in a restful sleep.
But there was one thing that did not tally with such a restful sleep - she was lying on the left upper arm, whereas the forearm and hand protruded from her body.
Reasonably, if she had been forced down or thrown to the ground, she would have tried to fend the fall off with that left arm. And that would normally not produce a position where she lay on her own arm. It is a distinctly uncomfortable, even painful way of lying down, and if you can avoid it, you will.
If you are already dead or dying as you end up like that, however, you could not care less. Consequentially, people who are found dead, lying on their sides with their own arms underneath them, are people who have not chosen themselves to end up in such a position. If they could, they would have avoided it. But dead people donīt make choices, Observer.

Of course, to all of this we must also add that IF she was brought down to the ground, her cachous held firmly in her hand throughout the fall, willingly landing upon her own arm in spite of the pain it would inflict - then she was also obliging enough to do so silently.

Weighing things together, Observer, I think the suggestion of a cut during her fall has a lot more going for it than any other suggestion. And when we take a look in Buckīs Row and Mitre Square, we do not see any gushing of blood painting telling brushstrokes on the ground, do we? It is not until we take a look at Annie Chapmans death that this becomes an issue as portrayed by the bloodsplashes on the fence beside her. And this ALTHOUGH it would seem that Chapman was at least partially strangled!

It is a question of where the gush is directed, Observer - and when you fall to your left hand side, the left side of your neck facing the ground during the fall, the area directly beneath that fall is reasonably the area where the blood will end up. It would in fact have no other way to go, would it?

All the best!
Fisherman

[perrymason]

Hello Mike. To get back on topic (mea culpa!) I wonder if:

1. Curare were available to a medical person?

2. How quickly it would act?

3. How traceable it is?

The best.
LC

Now thats a good suggestion my friend, just the right kind of magic elixir if that in fact is how they were subdued so effectively.

Wikipedia

"During 1811-1812 Sir Benjamin Collins Brody (1783-1862) experimented with curare.[5] He was the first to show that curare does not kill the animal and the recovery is complete if the animal’s respiration is maintained artificially. In 1825 Charles Waterton described a classical experiment in which he kept a curarized female donkey alive by artificial respiration with a bellows through a tracheostomy.[6] Waterton is also credited with bringing curare to Europe.[7] Robert Hermann Schomburgk, who was a trained botanist, identified the vine as one of the Strychnos genus and gave it the now accepted name Strychnos toxifera.[8]

George Harley (1829-1896) showed in 1850 that curare (wourali) was effective for the treatment of tetanus and strychnine poisoning.[9][10] From 1887 the Burroughs Wellcome catalogue listed under its 'Tabloids' brand name, tablets of curare at 1/12 grain (price 8 shillings) for use in preparing a solution for hypodermic injection. In 1914 Henry Hallett Dale (1875-1968) described the physiological actions of acetylcholine.[11] After twenty-five years he showed that acetylcholine is responsible for neuromuscular transmission which can be blocked by curare.[12]

The best known and historically most important toxin (because of its medical applications) is d-tubocurarine. It was isolated from the crude drug (from a museum sample of curare) in 1935 by Harold King (1887-1956) of London, working in Sir Henry Dale’s laboratory. He also established its chemical structure.[13] It was introduced into anesthesia in the early 1940s as a muscle relaxant for surgery. Curares are active — toxic or muscle-relaxing, depending on the intention of their use — only by an injection or a direct wound contamination by poisoned dart or arrow. It is harmless if taken orally[6][14] because curare compounds are too large and too highly charged to pass through the lining of the digestive tract to be absorbed into the blood. For this reason, native tribes are able to safely eat curare-poisoned prey. In medicine, curare has been superseded by a number of curare-like agents, such as pancuronium, which have a similar pharmacodynamic profile but fewer side effects.


Thanks for that great notion Lynn, this is the kind of thing I was looking for.

All the best mate

[lynn cates]

penance

Hello Mike. That is my penance for so oft posting off topic.

Absolved?

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

guess who

Hello Mike. Looking back at your post, a suspect who may have had experience in this direction leapt out at me--D'Onston Stephenson. Did he not boast of spending time in the appropriate part of the world?

The best.
LC

[perrymason]

Hello Mike. That is my penance for so oft posting off topic.

Absolved?

The best.
LC

I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen

That will be one pint sir.

Cheers Lynne

[Observer]

Hi Fisherman

Two things.

How did the killer administer a clean six inch slash to the throat of a falling turning Liz Stride, especially in a darkened yard.

Why were Liz Strides legs drawn up, if the killer dragged her to the ground cutting her all the while then I would expect her to be in an extended position, her body being limp.

It is my opinion that the killer forced Liz Stride to the ground by the shoulders hence the bruising, and as he straddled her (she coming to rest laying on her left side) she tried to push the killer off with her knees,but he is too strong, he lifts her head by the hair and cuts her throat, the legs remain in the folded postition.

Liz Stride took out a packet of cachous shortly before her death, and the rapidity of the assault ensured that they remained in her hand as she was taken down. She had made a fist with that hand, in order to fight back but her upper arm was pinned under her body rendering it useless, her throat is cut and the hand opens a little but the cachous remains caught betwee her first and index finger.

all the best

Observer

[perrymason]

If I may also take a poke at a few of those Observer......

How did the killer administer a clean six inch slash to the throat of a falling turning Liz Stride, especially in a darkened yard.

The killer caught her by the scarf while she faced the opening between the gates and pulled her off balance, while twisting the scarf towards his left, or the wall...her hands are going to her throat, she is off balance.. backwards, he tugs down and left on the scarf while reaching across her throat with his right hand and pressing the knife to her throat using her fall and partial body weight to help the depth of the cut. She falls on her side as she is being turned to face the wall when she is dropped, her legs curl up into her body in a reflexive, protective, fetal position....and she bleeds to death without moving overall position. The sudden attack caused her to clench the cachous, and the very brief overall time of the attack, perhaps 2 seconds, allows for the hand to be stuck in that position.

Why were Liz Strides legs drawn up, ...

Got that above

It is my opinion that the killer forced Liz Stride to the ground by the shoulders hence the bruising, and as he straddled her (she coming to rest laying on her left side) she tried to push the killer off with her knees,but he is too strong, he lifts her head by the hair and cuts her throat, the legs remain in the folded postition.

The legs arent folded, they are pulled in towards the body.....bent inward. Like the motion I described would look like. And Blackwell did say that its possible she was cut while falling....he didnt rule out that possibility as the wound would still be consistent with that motion.

Liz Stride took out a packet of cachous shortly before her death, and the rapidity of the assault ensured that they remained in her hand as she was taken down. She had made a fist with that hand, in order to fight back but her upper arm was pinned under her body rendering it useless, her throat is cut and the hand opens a little but the cachous remains caught betwee her first and index finger.

You know Im going to say thats beyond what can be even guessed here, we dont have any evidence that she was in a struggle of any kind after BSM's altercation...assuming it occurred.....and she looked to one officer as if "gently lain down". The only activity it appears can be supposed is that her killer used her scarf to choke her, and she may have been choked, cut and dropped in 2 seconds and left to die.

I wont belabor the point on the evidence concerning Liz Stride that night as Ive done, suffice to say we have many interesting features of her behavior and dress to suggest that this was likely a social night out for Liz.....by appearances, a planned all nighter. That is where the cachous come in I believe....and the fact that they were in her hand as she was attacked sometime just before 1am lead me to believe she may have had a planned meeting with someone for that time.....it would explain the appearance of cachous.

But not why she dies holding them...thats where reason should dictate that in all likelihood Liz was unaware she was in danger at that moment.

So you need a known man, an acquaintance, an employer......(she did clean houses and serve dinners for Jewish families...and this night was the eve of a high holiday I believe), or a love interest.

Cause being alone with a stranger who is a brute that pulled her off her feet isnt going to have her at ease, nor is a sudden appearance of someone else in the yard with her that she doesnt know. Remember, the yard was empty at 12:40, its only 12:45, and she has the altercation in a location that makes someone else entering the yard unseen by either BSM or Liz or Israel unlikely. So the killer has to be in the yard....that was empty 5 minutes ago...or he has to come from the club, cottages, or the paper office in the back. Most if not all of those people were still onsite and interviewed by the police after the yard was locked down.

And when you think about it....thats a really small pool from which to have to pull a "Ripper" from.

Its a simple murder, cachous are a simple clue as to her likely relationship with her killer, and very definitely there aint no "Ripping" happenin' in Dutfields Yard.

My best regards

[Observer]

Folded, pulled in towards the body, what the difference? They are in a position which might suggest that she had tried to use them to push off her attacker who straddled her.

Also


"The killer caught her by the scarf while she faced the opening between the gates and pulled her off balance, while twisting the scarf towards his left, or the wall...her hands are going to her throat, she is off balance.. backwards, he tugs down and left on the scarf while reaching across her throat with his right hand and pressing the knife to her throat using her fall and partial body weight to help the depth of the cut. She falls on her side as she is being turned to face the wall when she is dropped,"

Then why no blood spray on the wall? Why no blood spray extending along the ground? You are telling me that she is cut while falling, and doesn't spray blood on either the wall or ground? It doesn't equate mate, back to school for you teacher.

all the best

Observer

[Observer]

Regarding what Liz Stride was up to that night, I'll leave it to PC Smiths description of the man he saw with Liz Stride 25 minute prior to her death.Young man, late twenties, respectably dressed. Now I ask you what would a respectable young man in his late twenties want with a 45 year old soak with all the teeth missing from her left lower jaw, and in all probability her other teeth in decay resulting in bad breath? Hence the cachous. That is, what would he want other than a short time with Liz Stride?

And I am not being disrespectfull to Liz Stride here, the times, the place, took their toll on a lot of women of her kind.

all the best

Observer

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

Having followed this discussion from afar, I'll permit myself my tup'ny worth.

Mike, I think you may well be correct, that Liz Stride's killing is too different to include as a "Ripper". Not entirely convinced of your reasoning, and Observer does have point, although, we can only conjecture it, about the cachous and the meeting of a "date".

However, I believe her date was coming from within the Workingmans Club.
That the clandestine meeting was with one of the husbands of the women who lived in one of the houses she cleaned. WHY? Not a love thing... more likely this....
To beg/ask for some money from someone she knew, (remember her bed hadn't been paid for according to the lodging house keeper)...

Could it be that she actually MET this man/aquaintance in that back yard, and asked for money? He said ok..if you do something for me. Then, as she l went to/lay herself down, he struck. The position of the legs certainly don't look, on first sighting, to be a "natural fall position." It is rare that bodies fall into neatness. So EITHER, she herself PUT herself in that position prior to her throat being cut, or she was placed there to make it look more normal, or natural.... a drunk having passed out...in a very dark yard.
Then zip!, matey is either back in the club, mingling, knowing that it may look like a drunk woman in the darkness, having passed out, or he does a quick moonlight flit.

The above escape depends on the time. If the former, he was a few minutes ahead of any witnesses from the road. But if later? Then matey WAS spotted and he is the Lipski., being warned that the cart driver Louis D had just turned into the street.

My bet is that the Lipski call out was because that witness SAW our mate do what he did to Liz Stride. And probably knew him.

I know it's just theory... but asking for money, trying to apply her trade for money, amongst people she KNEW..is pretty feasable to me. Sounds more natural too.

best wishes

Phil

[Fisherman]

Observer asks:

"How did the killer administer a clean six inch slash to the throat of a falling turning Liz Stride, especially in a darkened yard."

By grabbing her by the scarf, tightening it and holding on to it as he cut.

"Why were Liz Strides legs drawn up, if the killer dragged her to the ground cutting her all the while then I would expect her to be in an extended position, her body being limp."

She would go limp as she was still on her feet to an extent as he cut. After that, she would slump down, the legs bending by the knees. I see no need for any dragging, just a firm hold on the scarf, a pulling off balance, a cut, and then her weight did the rest.
Needless to say, this part involves a good deal of possibilitites to interpret things!

...proven by this proposition:

"It is my opinion that the killer forced Liz Stride to the ground by the shoulders hence the bruising, and as he straddled her (she coming to rest laying on her left side) she tried to push the killer off with her knees,but he is too strong, he lifts her head by the hair and cuts her throat, the legs remain in the folded postition."

She did not "come to rest on her left side" - she landed on that side from the outset, as shown by the mud on her clothing. And lying on her left side, she could not possibly have used her knees to try and fend the man off.

"She had made a fist with that hand, in order to fight back but her upper arm was pinned under her body rendering it useless, her throat is cut..."

...but letīs remember that as he cut, according to you he first gripped her by the hair to steady her. Can you explain why she at this stage apparently remained silent?

I canīt.

It does not add up this way, Observer. It just doesnīt.

The best,
Fisherman

[curious]

Hello Mike and Sir Robert. The choke hold includes catching the head in or near the bend of the arm and exerting pressure on the neck--particularly the carotid arteries. It can cause a swoon in as little as 30 seconds.

It is eminently plausible as Jack's take down method. (It also smacks of a bit of anatomical/physiological knowledge and would seem to rule out the glassy-eyed, frothing-at-the-mouth ripper.)

The best, chaps.
LC

Doesn't it also indicate a Ripper taller than most of the men seen with the women just prior to their deaths?

[lynn cates]

height

Hello Curious. Well, given that the women were just over 5 feet, it seems that 2-4 inches above would suffice.

The best.
LC

[Fisherman]

...he said, and wisely left Stride out of the tally

The best,
Fisherman

[perrymason]

Hi again,

Phil the only issue I would have with her seeking out money for a bed that night is that she in fact HAD the doss before she even left the lodging house. She was paid 6d to clean rooms that afternoon...finished around 5pm. Beds were 4d.

Not only did she not pay for her bed and go earn some money for drinking instead, she said to her lodgemate that she didnt know when she would return, but it would not be on that night. She left her the fabric swatch.

I agree that she was meeting someone connected with that club, but my impression based on the above and the flowers and the cachous and the lint brush request and the fact that she is sober when murdered.....is that she intended on spending the night with a man socially.

All the best