"Site" unseen?

[c.d.]

If Jack were stopped on the street in a random search and had that paraphanalia on his person, he might have some "splainin" to do.

c.d.

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

A carotid artery choke hold, as discussed on the Forums as well as in Ripperologist, is almost certainly the M.O.

[Mrs. E. Nigma]

If Jack were stopped on the street in a random search and had that paraphanalia on his person, he might have some "splainin" to do.

c.d.

I agree. It would be much easier to explain a knife than to have to explain why you had a knife and a syringe.

Best Wishes,
Erynn

[Mascara & Paranoia]

In fact there is a great deal of evidence that warrants inclusion of students or practitioners in the medical field as suspects for a killer of SOME of the Canonicals.

Sam seems to think the skill level should be assessed based on the entirety of the series, or at least with the inclusion of murders that obviously show no particular skill or knowledge of anything anatomical or surgical.

If you remove the murders that are as such, you get what the doctors who examined the women surmised....a killer who showed some talent and some skill.

Not to piss on your fireworks, but wasn't only Chapman (the removal of her uterus) and Eddowes (the removal of her kidney) deemed to have been the work of a semi-skilled man? I can't remember if the same was said for any of the others.

[The Good Michael]

Not to piss on your fireworks, but wasn't only Chapman (the removal of her uterus) and Eddowes (the removal of her kidney) deemed to have been the work of a semi-skilled man? I can't remember if the same was said for any of the others.

It all depends on who you ask and what agenda someone might have.

Mike

[Monty]

Mornin,

Im in bed right now (oh the decadence of Monty) and really cant be bothered to get up and walk the 3 yards to my bookself, however Im pretty certain one of the cannonical was checked for drugs during the post mortem. Further more it was reported at inquest.

I do know for certain that a sample of Coles blood was taken at the murder scene. This was most likely tested for discrepencies.

Monty

[lynn cates]

choke hold

Hello Mike and Sir Robert. The choke hold includes catching the head in or near the bend of the arm and exerting pressure on the neck--particularly the carotid arteries. It can cause a swoon in as little as 30 seconds.

It is eminently plausible as Jack's take down method. (It also smacks of a bit of anatomical/physiological knowledge and would seem to rule out the glassy-eyed, frothing-at-the-mouth ripper.)

The best, chaps.
LC

[lynn cates]

drug evidence

Hello Monty. You are correct that at least some of the victims were tested for drugs and found negative. Of course, some drugs are more easily detected than others.

The best.
LC

[smezenen]

Hello Mike and Sir Robert. The choke hold includes catching the head in or near the bend of the arm and exerting pressure on the neck--particularly the carotid arteries. It can cause a swoon in as little as 30 seconds.

It is eminently plausible as Jack's take down method. (It also smacks of a bit of anatomical/physiological knowledge and would seem to rule out the glassy-eyed, frothing-at-the-mouth ripper.)

The best, chaps.
LC

lynn,
Your description is very close, the only correction I would make is that, when applied properly, a choke hold can render the victim unconscious in as little as 2 or 3 seconds not 30. This can be done without leaving a single mark on the neck.

As evidence I submit Royce Gracie who, outweighed by 45 pounds subdued Ken Shamrock within seconds of applying a rear gi choke at 57 seconds into the first round during UFC 1. During the title fight Royce became the first UFC Champion when, at 1 minute and 44 seconds into the first round he applied a rear naked choke that rendered Gerard Gordeau (who outwieghed Gracie by 40 pounds) uncounsious in the blink of an eye.

[lynn cates]

pro wrestling

Hello S. Thank you. I was unaware of that. Even better.

I wonder whether an example from "Pro Wrestling"--the terminology is from that source?--is beyond reproach?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Royce Gracie wasn't in the LVP, and neither was Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. Our killer wasn't some Navy Seal, Commando, or MMA fighter. Possibilities don't usually equate to realities.

Cheers,

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

As I pointed out Sam we have open doors and windows and wide awake potential witnesses at those 3 sites.

Which doors and windows were open, and which witnesses (plural) were wide awake? Answer: there's only George Morris the caretaker and Albert Cadoche - but then, he did hear something, didn't he? Mainly because he was mere feet away from Annie Chapman - not so Morris, who was busy doing other things inside a building tens of yards away. So, we just have one realistic "ear-witness", and he, in fairness, did hear something. If only the other murders had had witnesses mere feet away from the scene of the crime, you might have a point, Mike - but unfortunately that was not the case by any stretch of the imagination.

[smezenen]

Royce Gracie wasn't in the LVP, and neither was Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. Our killer wasn't some Navy Seal, Commando, or MMA fighter. Possibilities don't usually equate to realities.

Cheers,

Mike

Hello Mike,
I never suggested that Royce Gracie or even Brazilian Jui Jitsu was around in 1888, In fact I am very aware that Brazilian Jui Jitsu was developed starting in 1914 and was derived from Judo which was founded by Jigoro Kano in Japan around the year 1882. Judo was derived from Jujutsu which is one of the Japanese Feudal Era forms of hand to hand combat developed by the Samurai. So while Brazilian Jui Jitsu may not have existed in 1888 some form of martial arts did, in fact the martial arts in Europe can be traced back to antiquity in the form of Greek wrestling. and to the Germanic form of Grappling known as Kampfringen or abrazare, practiced as early as 1350-1500 AD.
Furthermore I never claimed a Navy Seal, MMA fighter or Commando was responsible for the JTR killings. I will point out however that since hand to hand fighting techniques that include choke holds have been around pretty much since man first invented war and established armies it is just as possible that our man is a soldier as opposed to a doctor, butcher, medical student, or any of the other professions theorized by any and everyone who studies the case. Since you require that all examples come from the London Victorian Period I will site the significant hand to hand fighting during the Zulu war in 1879. The Battle of Rourke's Drift is an excellent example of how well British soldiers were trained in hand to hand combat. British losses are recorded as 17 killed and 14 wounded, while Zulu losses were estimated to be as high as 350-500 with most being killed killed in hand to hand fighting. There surely would have been soldiers around in 1888 that fought in that war. There is also one of the bloodiest wars in history for hand to hand combat, the American Civil War in the mid 1860's, that produced men very experienced in hand to hand combat. Many British men fought on both sides of that war, union and confederate. The point is, martial arts where just as known in 1888 as they are today so there is no reason to think JTR could not have know how to quickly choke someone from behind.

[smezenen]

Hello S. Thank you. I was unaware of that. Even better.

I wonder whether an example from "Pro Wrestling"--the terminology is from that source?--is beyond reproach?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,
In answer to your question, while both Pro Wrestling and UFC/MMA share some terminology Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC) and its current form Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) are not at all like "WWF/ WWE Pro Wrestling" which we all know is scripted and as fake as a 3 dollar bill. The UFC was organized to pit the different martial arts fighting styles against each other in an attempt to determine which styles where more effective. Before UFC the different fighting styles all had their own tournaments but never fought against each other to crown an overall champion.

[perrymason]

Not to piss on your fireworks, but wasn't only Chapman (the removal of her uterus) and Eddowes (the removal of her kidney) deemed to have been the work of a semi-skilled man? I can't remember if the same was said for any of the others.

Hi M & P,

No fear of dousing my enthusiasm for the question at hand. It was Wynne Baxters summation at the Nichols Inquest using the assumptions made by Phillips during the Inquest for Annie Chapman that linked the killer of Annie with the killer of Polly...in that it was assumed by looking at both the murders that the similarities warranted the conclusion it was the same killer, and the assumption that in the case of Polly, his poor venue choice was likely the reason she kept her uterus.

So by association Polly, Annie and Kates killer were thought by most to have some degree of skill and knowledge, I am not sure Phillips suggesting an imitator automatically infers one without skill or knowledge, Liz's killer knew where major arteries were on the neck, and Marys killer was adept at carving and slicing, but not assumed to have any knowledge or skill by Bond.

All the best