PC Neil's Route

[Elamarna]

P

Steve, Thanks for pointing out post #41 for me, missed that one. Was so proud of myself really thought I was onto something with my map (which took me ages to do, I hasten to add) & the newspaper report, which I see is also old news .

No still good that you found it. That is good research.



I agreed Queen Anne Street is a puzzle, I wonder if the beats overlapped in places. I'm assuming that the Northern Part of it would have been covered in the same beat that covered the Northern part of Baker's Row perhaps, but I'm just guessing here. Unless the bobby walked up one side and down the other, thus doubling back on himself, which isn't an unreasonable hypothesis?

I assume that the plan in #43 allowed for the comment about yards and alleys and the one to the north end of Queen Anne (Elizabeth place) is the only really large one..
In addition the Northern end seems to be a dead end and no obvious enter for another officer on another beat. So seems easiest if on same beat.

All I've got to go on is the newspaper report, as the original beat maps have long since been lost. But moving onto Winthrop street, I'm just guessing here, otherwise it appears that it wouldn't have been included in a beat, which would appear odd? Am I right in thinking this was mostly commercial buildings (slaughter house/Thain's cape fame, etc??).

I think the suggestion was that if one starts at the junction of Bucks/Brady he went right into Winthorpe, checked both sides including several yards back to Brady right into Whitechapel check both roads which lead up to Bucks Row and back down each not crossing Bucks Row. Along Whitechapel to Bakers up to whites row checked along to north side entrance of Thomas, back to Bakers into Thomas up and down across to queen Anne, left to Elizabeth place and top of Queen Anne back to Bucks and along to Brady.
That I think was the proposal and it seems to cover the route you found.

However it does not mean it is the right route, and your work is good.


Steve

[Elamarna]

Steve, yeh I'll have that #43 does certainly appear more accurate, but mine is more aesthetically pleasing

But on a plus note, the newspaper report does confirm my hypothesis about staffing levels, with nine beats for 5 bobbies.............

Seeing the map again I forgot the bridge up to Winthrope and the poster Franko I think did not have the turn into whites row going as far as I said.

I think both are good efforts given what details we do have.

All the best

Steve

[The Station Cat]

Echo
London, U.K.
21 September 1888

EAST END MURDERS
THE POLICEMEN'S NIGHT BEATS
THE PRESENT PRECAUTIONS
A Correspondent has obtained exact details of those police beats covering the area within which the Buck's row murder was committed. From this it will be seen that the murderer had no doubt a considerable time in which he was quite sure of being undisturbed by a police constable, assuming he knew the beats. It seems that, notwithstanding the frequent repetition of murders round Whitechapel, under circumstances leading to the conclusion that they were the work of one man, not one single extra police officer was put upon the ground until after the commission of the fourth and last murder. Then the streets were filled night and by by police in and out of uniform.

During the month of August, and up to the 8th instant, when Annie Chapman was killed, the following beats were covered by the men of the J Division quartered at Bethnal Green, these forming what is known as the "Second Section night duty." The first police constable would commence his two beats at Wilmot street, three Colt land, Cheshire street, Mape street, Bethnal Green road, to Wilmot street, and the interior, this consisting of a few streets, courts, passages, &c. The second constable would cover Three Colt lane, Collingwood street, Darling row, Dog row, Whitechapel road, Brady street, to Three Colt lane, and the interior, this consisting of about twenty streets, courts, passages, &c; the third constable would commence at Brady street, cover Whitechapel road, Baker's row, Thomas street, Queen Anne street, and Buck's row, to Brady street, and all the interior, this consisting of about ten streets, courts, passage, &c. The fourth constable would commence at Baker's row, go through Nottingham street, White street, Bethnal Green road, Mape street, London street, to Baker's row, and all the interior, consisting of about thirty streets, courts, passages, &c. The fifth and last man of the section would cover Whitechapel road alone, this making a total of nine beats for the five constables. The third beat was the one within the limit of which Mrs. Nicholl (sic) was murdered. The exterior of the beats are at least a mile in extent, and to this distance must be added the interiors.

Working on the above as a guide (and with no period map to work from, hence the use of google maps - if someone has one that I could us, I'd be in their debt), I have come up with this rough guide as to the beats patrolled by the bobbies stationed at Bethnal Green Police Station.

You will note that there appears to be a gap big enough for perhaps two more beats, next to Bethnal Green Garden and St Bartholmew Garden, I suspect that this area would have been covered by bobbies from Cambridge Heath Road Station (J Division), who I would assume had 5 more beats, that covered up to the boundary of Hackney (still on J Division) and Stepney (K Division).

So we have 9 beats to cover with 5 bobbies, include into this fixed point locations and bobbies at the station, manning the front counter and custody etc, with perhaps a few more on standby in the event of a major incident (I believe these would have been the one's that answered PC Mizen's call for assistance, when he was dispatched to Bethnal Green, by PC Neil.)

We know that there were 12 bobbies and one Sgt resident in Bethnal Green Station. We know that Sgt Kirby worked from Bethnal Green Station (but must have lived in the immediate community as he isn't on the census as being resident). The same can be said for Neil & Thane. From my research I can add PC James Chappell to this list and possibly PC Joseph Daniels, we also have PC Thomas Gordon and PC John Murphy to add to this list. So that's roughly 16 bobbies that we can be fairly sure of that worked at Bethnal Green Station, at the time. But obviously we can't be sure whether they all worked on the same shift. But using it as another rough guide. We'd need 3 shifts, to cover a 24 hours period, so that's 48 bobbies or there about's out of the 417 that were part of J Division, in 1888. Out of this we know that Kirby,Neil & Thane had a direct involvement in the Nichols murder with Gordon & Murphy involved in the search for Leather Apron. It stands to reason , considering how few bobbies there actually was covering this area that that night, that more bobbies must have been involved, such a shame that their names have been lost to history.

[Elamarna]

Cat

There are great period maps avaliable online. The one below allows the use of multiple period maps and a present day Google overlay.

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom...layers=163&b=1

you may find it very helpful in your research.

All the best

Steve

[The Station Cat]

Cat

There are great period maps avaliable online. The one below allows the use of multiple period maps and a present day Google overlay.

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom...layers=163&b=1

you may find it very helpful in your research.

All the best

Steve

Thanks Steve

[Newbie]

You seriously need my book Columbo.

Beat constables walked their beats at 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 mph, depending on which shift they were on. The would meet with their section sergeants, at aIn agreed location, at set times during their beat. This to provide an update for the sergeant.

Sergeants would also do spot checks, to ensure the constable is where he should be. However, if a constable can provide a valid reason, such as making an arrest, dealing with a disturbance, or even on a tea break (yes, that was permitted) for not being where he should be, then he would be excused.

As for knocking up, it was a carry on from the old days of The Watch. It was permitted, only if it didn't impact on the beat constables primary duties, and with consent.

Monty

I had a flat tire and had to walk 5.5 miles at night. I went at at a fast rate for 1 hr 40 minutes and only averaged 3.4 mph.
I left a time on my car window, looked at the time when I arrived home, and used Google maps to get the distance. I was delayed by traffic lights for maybe 2 minutes.

That is not the speed of a policeman on a beat carrying a lantern - no way.

[Newbie]

Thanks, guys.

To continue... The 12 minutes would definitely refer to the time it took to walk the entire route once round (he was walking in a loop, point A to point A), and would realistically be less than 12 minutes ("would not occupy 12 minutes"). CSI: Whitechapel only gives an overview of PC Neil's patch, not his exact movements that night. Holgram was more specific: he has PC Neil walking up Thomas Street and avoiding Baker's Row (as suggested by Begg/Bennett). I think it is vital that we know the exact route PC Neil, and indeed everyone, took that night. We can then better piece together Nichols' movements. Whilst I won't rule out Neil from being the Ripper, that's only because I rule out no one, and I agree that this it is highly unlikely and that in all probability he was knocking people up/taking a leak/checking doors etc. If Holgram has Neil's movements right, and we further assume that Neil's 3:45am time (the time he said he found Nichols) is right, then his average speed puts him at the bottom of Thomas Street (heading up to Buck's Row) at 3:36am. That means that Cross and Paul, who he didn't see or hear, must have already passed Thomas Street by 3:36am, in which case they must have left Nichols no later than 3:35am. Two things: Does anyone know how to contract Holgram? Because I'd like to know where he got Neil's route from (to make sure that it is correct). And should I now move this discussion to a "Cross was guilty", or some such, thread?

The route Ed Stowe proposed on his channel is only 0.6 miles in length.

You can do it going 3 mph in 12 minutes ... hardly brisk.
It would take 14 minutes going 2.5 mph.

Moreover, PC Neil would not be "within earshot" of the murder site for most of the evening.

I don't know why he and Fisherman would propose this because it tends to weaken their theory anyhow, not strengthen it.

[Newbie]

Thanks, guys.

I think it is vital that we know the exact route PC Neil, and indeed everyone, took that night. We can then better piece together Nichols' movements. Whilst I won't rule out Neil from being the Ripper, that's only because I rule out no one, and I agree that this it is highly unlikely and that in all probability he was knocking people up/taking a leak/checking doors etc. If Holgram has Neil's movements right, and we further assume that Neil's 3:45am time (the time he said he found Nichols) is right .........?

I'm with you Hair Bear, and I don't think it really matter if "Neil's" time (which might be Thain's time) is perfectly correct ..... Greenwich time. We can use it to try to go backwards from his 3:45 am time, or forward from his 3:15 am time. The further we are away from these anchor points, the less reliable our guesses.

We actually have 4 possibly independent times:

A. Neil's/Thain's time ..... synchronized with one of the grand clocks
B. Lechmere's time .... synchronized with Pickfords and the Broad street station
C. Paul's time .... synchronized with his employer? or maybe his local publican
D. Mizen's ..... ideally synchronized with the clocks as the J division PCs.

Since we want to know where everyone is in relation to Neil, we don't really care how absolute his time is ... even though it is a safer bet than Paul's.

I stole this from Franko? And will use it to propose one possible route of Neil's between 3:15 am and 3:45 am.


I am proposing that this was his route, between 3:15 am - 3:45 am, with a few caveats:

1. He didn't go up/down Queen Anne Street (maybe the next time)
2. He only partially went up the south part of Thomas Street & Court Street (only to the end of the residences)
3. He walked up Winthrop street, only looking into the entrance of Wood's building passage way and Nelson court
(it really doesn't really matter if this part is changed .... but I had him exit back out to Brady street, Mulshaw fritzing out)
4. Some where on White Chapel, taking a rest, checking the time, chatting with one or two PCs, flirting with some of the prostitutes, chugging a big glass of beer.


Assumptions:

A. His walking rate is 2.5 mph

B. He does not stop appreciably talking to anyone on this leg - he seems to have passed by PC 81 and one the night watchmen without a sniff; he seems to have not spoken with Mulshaw that night, gave a glance into the Harrison Barber yard after 3:15 am.

C. By 3:15 am, after being on duty for quite some time, there wasn't much left to interrupt his steady slog, outside of White Chapel road.

PC Neil Walking speed 2.5 mph	PC Neil’s Location	Distance away from previous or distance to next location	Arrival time at Polly Nichols’ body (assuming no stops & walking at steady rate)
⇩	Polly Nichols’ body	0	3:45:00 am
From previous	Thomas street /Buck’s Row corner	147 yards	3:43:02
⇩ From previous	Passage to Queen Anne street /Thomas street	54 yards from thomas street/ buck’s row	3:42: 18 am (at entrance to park - open area - sound waves spread out)
Lomas street/ Thomas street corner	120 yards	3:41:26
	Baker street / Buck’s row corner	223 yards	3:38:28
Ingress onto whites’ row from Baker’s street (in/out)	Baker’s street/ Baker’s street	70 yards	3:37:32 (56 seconds) 3:38:00 am (at furthest point in)
⇩ From previous	Thomas street/ Thomas street (up/down residences)	54 yards	elapsed time: 43 seconds At end of street: 3:34:35 am
Court street/ Court street (up/down residences)	54 yards	elapsed time: 43 second At end of street: 3:33:40 am
White chapel / Court street corner (along Baker/whitechapel)	208 yards	3:33:19 am
Gap time	3:30 am (clock check on White Chapel road)		5 minutes, 41 seconds
⇧	Winthrop to Courts st. Court st /Whitechapel corner	432 yards	3:27:00 am
	Winthrop street/ Brady street corner (leaving winthrop)	312 yards	Elapsed time: 4:10 3:21:15 am at end by woods buildings: 3:19:28 am
⇧	Winthrop /Brady st corner (entering winthrop)	156 yards	3:17:05 am
To previous	Polly Nichols’ body	0	3:15 am
Total (time of walking)		1776 yards 1 mile (1760 yards)	24:22

[Newbie]

We will assume that Lechmere/Paul abandon the body going at Paul's average speed as if he thought he had left his home at 3:44 am.

We will use the following two anchor points:

A. The time PC Neil encounters the body at 3:45 am, Neil time
B. The minimum distance PC Neil is away from Buck's row, while heading southward down Thomas Street. We note that Thomas Street opens up into a park 54 yards from the entrance to Buck's road. Sound waves of footsteps heading down Thomas Street will diffract and head out from this point, weakening rapidly.





C. And the weaker anchoring time of PC Mizen's meeting Paul/Lechmere at 3:45 Mizen time. We can estimate how synchronized the two times are from the different PCs using this, if it interests us.

All times are PC Neil’s / Thain’s time
PC Neil anywhere from 60 yards to 120 yards from Buck’s row, going south on Thomas street, alongside the park.
Cross /Paul	Departing body	Thomas street / buck’s row	Buck’s row /Baker’s row	PC Mizen: Hansbury/bakers row	total
Cross & Paul (distance from previous)	0	147 yards	83 yards	124 yards	354 yards
Cross & Paul (time)	0	92.5 seconds	52 seconds	78 seconds	214 seconds
Proposed actual time	??	Latest: 3:42:14 am Earlier: 3:41:26	??	??

All times are PC Neil’s / Thain’s time
Cross /Paul	Departing body	Thomas street / buck’s row	Buck’s row /Baker’s row	PC Mizen: Hansbury / bakers row	total
Cross & Paul (distance from previous)	0	147 yards	83 yards	124 yards	354 yards
Cross & Paul (time)	0	92.5 seconds	52 seconds	78 seconds	214 seconds
Proposed actual time	Latest: 3:41:42 am Earlier: 3:40:56 am	Latest: 3:42:14 am Earlier: 3:41:26 am	Latest: 3:43:06 am Earlier: 3:42:18 am	Latest: 3:44:26 am Earlier: 3:43:36

So, if PC Neil marches steadily at 2.5 mph, without stopping, & if Lechmere/Paul leave the body at Paul's average rate of speed, if he left home believing it was 3:44 am, then these figures would be of decent accuracy, using Neil's time.

Conclusion:

I. Paul/Lechmere left the body at a time between 3:40:56 to 3:41:26 (PC Neil's time)
2. PauL met Lechmere at a time between 3:39:56 and 3:40:26
3. PC Mizen's watch/mental time is running faster than Neil/Thain's mental time by 34 seconds to 1:24 seconds, or beyond.

If they leave the body at a faster rate, then everything moves to a later time, and greater correspondence exists between the two times.

[Geddy2112]

Conclusion:

I. Paul/Lechmere left the body at a time between 3:40:56 to 3:41:26 (PC Neil's time)
2. Paul met Lechmere at a time between 3:39:56 and 3:40:26
3. PC Mizen's watch/mental time is running faster than Neil/Thain's mental time by 34 seconds to 1:24 seconds, or beyond.

If they leave the body at a faster rate, then everything moves to a later time, and greater correspondence exists between the two times.

Are you suggesting ALL three points happened? If so it does not give Charlie Boy much time to do the murder does it. In fact it seems to completely rule him out.

[Newbie]

Are you suggesting ALL three points happened? If so it does not give Charlie Boy much time to do the murder does it. In fact it seems to completely rule him out.

If you noticed Geddy, I abstained from specifying what happened before Lechmere saw Paul, and then Paul came up to Lechmere.

What this representation of movements says is that the absolute latest time in which Paul/Lechemere would have left the body was around 3:41:42 am (Neil time), and they would have arrived at PC Mizen around 3:44:26 am, when Mizen was knocking someone up. It conforms well enough with Mizen's 3:45 am time, so if you like the idea that both policeman were looking at synchronized clocks while starting the next leg, and new precisely the time based on the stage of their cycle in the route .... it agrees with that.

The one problem is that Neil would only be 60 yards from Buck's row ..... the echoes of their footsteps would diffract once arriving at the park and quickly dissipate, but 6 yards beyond is perhaps a bit too short.

[Newbie]

One interesting result from my calculations is that if this were PC Neil's route and pace, he would be cruising up and down Court Street and then Thomas St. (south) between 3:33 am & 3:35 am, and then arrive at the top of Buck's row (White's row) on Baker street after 3:37 am and then linger there for about a minute.

The advantage of this route and pace is that:

A. it covers all the streets on this cycle, except for Queen Anne Street, which had no commerical properties and perhaps the Woods buildings passage / Nelson court, which are covered in a glance.
B. it has PC Neil, at 4 different locations within 'hearing distance' of the murder site, before exiting Thomas Street (north) at Buck's row.

The disadvantage is:

it cannot be covered briskly in 12 minutes: it takes 24 minutes going all the way around at 2.5 mph.
However, cut out Winthrop street, along with the ingresses up Court, Thomas and White's row (roughly 500 yards) and a 'brisk' walk could possibly take 12 minutes.
* that would be 1276 yards in total: 1276 yards = 0.725 miles, 12 minutes = 0.2 hours --> 0.725 miles / 0.2 hours = 3.625 mph ( a brisk walk)

If a prostitute wanted to take a punter/John down to Buck's row from White Chapel road, then after 3:30 am, Brady street would be the way to go; before 3:30 am it would be from the western end: Court or Thomas Street. Experienced prostitutes would know the general location of beat cops. If not, they'd ask a friend when they arrived. Polly Nichols had been doing this sort of thing for at least 10 years and knew the ropes, even while sloshed. It would behoove Jack the Ripper to know pretty much where the beat cops were situated before he slashed a victims throat. If he didn't, he could ply the victim while they walked to the spot, or he could assume based on the direction they entered and the location.

The direction Jack the Ripper would most likely want to escape is eastward before 3:30 am, being led there from Thomas/Court,
and westward after 3:30 am, being led there via Bradley street.

Its possible, but leaving White Chapel without a client, to hang out at Brown's stable yard would be a very odd: the streets were unusually quiet that night per multiple sources.

[Newbie]

And yes, the gap time should be 5 minutes and 38 seconds ..... a mistake I cannot correct.

[The Baron]

One interesting result from my calculations is that if this were PC Neil's route and pace, he would be cruising up and down Court Street and then Thomas St. (south) between 3:33 am & 3:35 am, and then arrive at the top of Buck's row (White's row) on Baker street after 3:37 am and then linger there for about a minute.

The advantage of this route and pace is that:

A. it covers all the streets on this cycle, except for Queen Anne Street, which had no commerical properties and perhaps the Woods buildings passage / Nelson court, which are covered in a glance.
B. it has PC Neil, at 4 different locations within 'hearing distance' of the murder site, before exiting Thomas Street (north) at Buck's row.

The disadvantage is:

it cannot be covered briskly in 12 minutes: it takes 24 minutes going all the way around at 2.5 mph.
However, cut out Winthrop street, along with the ingresses up Court, Thomas and White's row (roughly 500 yards) and a 'brisk' walk could possibly take 12 minutes.
* that would be 1276 yards in total: 1276 yards = 0.725 miles, 12 minutes = 0.2 hours --> 0.725 miles / 0.2 hours = 3.625 mph ( a brisk walk)

If a prostitute wanted to take a punter/John down to Buck's row from White Chapel road, then after 3:30 am, Brady street would be the way to go; before 3:30 am it would be from the western end: Court or Thomas Street. Experienced prostitutes would know the general location of beat cops. If not, they'd ask a friend when they arrived. Polly Nichols had been doing this sort of thing for at least 10 years and knew the ropes, even while sloshed. It would behoove Jack the Ripper to know pretty much where the beat cops were situated before he slashed a victims throat. If he didn't, he could ply the victim while they walked to the spot, or he could assume based on the direction they entered and the location.

The direction Jack the Ripper would most likely want to escape is eastward before 3:30 am, being led there from Thomas/Court,
and westward after 3:30 am, being led there via Bradley street.

Its possible, but leaving White Chapel without a client, to hang out at Brown's stable yard would be a very odd: the streets were unusually quiet that night per multiple sources.

Great Newbie!


The Baron

[Geddy2112]

And yes, the gap time should be 5 minutes and 38 seconds ..... a mistake I cannot correct.

I'm looking at Herlock Sholmes and Fiver here to come in and dissect the maths on this one. As for me I'd kind of ignore it and go with the 'no way of accurately assume time' routine and you are talking in parts of a minute (seconds) to make a point which I consider unsafe.

I thought we had all generally agreed over the last ten or so years there was no mysterious time gap and that was an invention by Team Lechmere to frame an innocent man.