Seaside Home?

[Phil Carter]

Sorry if I'm butting in Stephen/Caz but whilst we may surmise it was most likely either Schwartz or Lawende, it could well have been someone else the police were keeping quiet about...and apparently remained quiet about, donkeys years later...and if that's so, it may well influence the choice of venue for an ID confrontation...do you not think?

Dave

Hello Dave,

Then one would be totting up an awful string of caveats and ifs?

We would have to assume:-

1) The marginalia's scant details were true
2) The Seaside Home was the Police Home
3) That the witness either lived near or was unable to travel
4) That the witness was for unknown reasons that would have to be shrouded in secrecy would be unknown to almost everyone except only a few
5) That nobody, ever, whispered a word, not even a hand me down story
6) That all police papers were destroyed or 'lost' and could never be 'found'
7) ditto Home Office papers (they would surely have known about it too)
8) That any mention by the (later) insane Jewish suspect was never recorded at the asylum
9) That the suspect's family never spoke of it, ever
10) That Swanson had actually gone against ALL other people's actions on the matter and he alone mentioned what all others were sworn to secrecy about.

ALL THIS for a poor insane Polish Jew?
not to mention the secret witness!
Sorry Dave, there's more chance of Popham Down turning round and beating Foinavon after refusing the fence that caused the carnage of the 1967 Grand National.

And Foinavon was the 100/1 outsider.
(I had 6d each way on Red Alligator which came 3rd )
i am showing my age!


Best wishes

Phil

[Cogidubnus]

Much to early you should not fall into the same trap as others trying to put square pegs in round holes.

Why is this too early Trevor? (Apart from predating the 1890 opening of the first formal Seaside Home that is)

Dave

[Phil Carter]

The bottom line though is the question of why either Schwartz or Lawende would have been staying in a police hospital when they weren't policemen which is something some people here seem to believe.

Hello Stephen,

Exactly. Way too much for us to believe based on zero evidence or back up.

Best wishes

Phil

[Trevor Marriott]

Why is this too early Trevor? (Apart from predating the 1890 opening of the first formal Seaside Home that is)

Dave

Because those who support the Id parade suggest it must have occurred around 1891 before Kosminski was finallay incarcerated.

To be fair you only have to look ay the evidence of Lawende would that on its own secure a conviction. It would not even be enough to charge anyone.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Trevor,

Even IF the witness was not one of those two, their testimony of a clear sighting would surely have been recorded by the police at the time, and or the Coroner, and or the Newspapers?

Even Lord Euston didnt get away with that sort of anonimity 2 years later in 1890 during the Cleveland Street nonsense.

Best wishes

Phil

[Cogidubnus]

1) The marginalia's scant details were true
2) The Seaside Home was the Police Home
3) That the witness either lived near or was unable to travel
4) That the witness was for unknown reasons that would have to be shrouded in secrecy would be unknown to almost everyone except only a few
5) That nobody, ever, whispered a word, not even a hand me down story
6) That all police papers were destroyed or 'lost' and could never be 'found'
7) ditto Home Office papers (they would surely have known about it too)
8) That any mention by the (later) insane Jewish suspect was never recorded at the asylum
9) That the suspect's family never spoke of it, ever
10) That Swanson had actually gone against ALL other people's actions on the matter and he alone mentioned what all others were sworn to secrecy about.

Hi Phil

I'm not falling into the trap of even discussing (1) on this thread Phil! (Sorry!)

(2) At this distance in time I would suggest it is difficult to tell

(3) does not necessarily follow if the witness is vulnerable and has been temporarily taken out of circulation for protection perhaps...or to be kept away from an over-intrusive press

(4) may well follow from that...

(5) But they did...at quite a high level in differing degrees

(6) Yes we know lots of papers have disappeared...I expect other archives of similar age have been equally denuded too!

(7) If the ID was unsuccessful I doubt they told the Home Office - relationships between successive head honchos and the Home Secretary seem to have been far from cordial...

(8) Any mention of what Phil...the ID? It was unsuccessful so how likely is the Asylum to be interested? Or if they were we don't know if it was Kosminski, Kaminski, Cohen or anyone else we've never heard of...depending how late this suspect died we mayn't have seen all the records we're going to just yet!

(9) In the 1890s and early 1900s would you Phil? Especially if I was an immigrant wanting to assimilate as quickly as possible, I'd be keeping my head down scratching a living, not boasting my son's a well known murderer

(10) Ah but publicly he didn't Phil...and even privately he only did after MM and RA had cleared the way....

The Seaside Home is a very awkward thing to factor in, for a variety of reasons (I've mentioned some earlier in the thread, as have others) but until it can be actually disproved I believe we're stuck with it!

All the very best...hope the move went ok...

Dave

[Wickerman]

Much to early you should not fall into the same trap as others trying to put square pegs in round holes.

Not too early if, as some have offered, that the Seaside Home was an error for Seaman's Home, within Whitechapel.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Because those who support the Id parade suggest it must have occurred around 1891 before Kosminski was finallay incarcerated.

To be fair you only have to look ay the evidence of Lawende would that on its own secure a conviction. It would not even be enough to charge anyone.

But I'm not necessarily supporting anyone else's views Trevor...just casting around for ideas about what this little mystery just might be really about...and I'm certainly not yet ready to accept the witness was Lawende...Heck I'm not even sure who the suspect might be (with all due respect to Kominski fans) but until I know more, I'm not prepared to rule him out either.

I don't suppose for a moment that a confrontation ID would be enough to secure a conviction - but at least they'd KNOW - and if the guy was clearly nuts then a conviction didn't enter into it anyway...a commital might though!

Every good wish

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Not too early if, as some have offered, that the Seaside Home was an error for Seaman's Home, within Whitechapel.

I certainly wouldn't preclude that either Jon!

Cheers (says he broaching another tin of Hobgoblin)

Dave

[Phil Carter]

Hello Dave,

The point being that to believe a clandestine ID situation at a Seaside Home on the subject of nailing Jack the Ripper, either the witness or the suspect or another factor would have to be of such import to go to such lengths to start with?

The only way one can disprove the veracity of the marginalia is to show other methodology used in similar situations (ID'ing JTR) showing the unlikelyhood of such actions, and awaiting some sort of example that the or any Seaside Home was used for such, because when all is said and done, the writer may just have been making the whole thing up for his own amusement! We dont know that either do we?

Havent moved yet, still packing away things! Hope you are well too!

Best wishes

Phil

[Trevor Marriott]

Not too early if, as some have offered, that the Seaside Home was an error for Seaman's Home, within Whitechapel.

Regards, Jon S.

Well then it all comes back to the ID involving Sadler.

As Phil stated none of the witnesses as known saw anything of any evidential value.

Look at it another way if anyone of those went on an ID parade and lets say picked someone out, what would that prove.

It would prove that that the suspect identified was seen in company with a victim prior to their death. It wouldnt prove that person was the killer.

When confronted the suspect could easily say "yes it was me but I spoke to her and then left her and when i did she was still alive."

Without any addittional corroboration no case to answer

[Trevor Marriott]

But I'm not necessarily supporting anyone else's views Trevor...just casting around for ideas about what this little mystery just might be really about...and I'm certainly not yet ready to accept the witness was Lawende...Heck I'm not even sure who the suspect might be (with all due respect to Kominski fans) but until I know more, I'm not prepared to rule him out either.

I don't suppose for a moment that a confrontation ID would be enough to secure a conviction - but at least they'd KNOW - and if the guy was clearly nuts then a conviction didn't enter into it anyway...a commital might though!

Every good wish

Dave

You are correct and I have previoulsy stated that was another option open to the police if any ID took place, clearly they didnt deem him mad, so that in itseslf kicks a big hole in the mad polish jew theory

[Phil Carter]

Not too early if, as some have offered, that the Seaside Home was an error for Seaman's Home, within Whitechapel.

Regards, Jon S.

Hello Jon,

err,,,just how much did Swanson get wrong then?
Because I would deem such information from anyone as unreliable. Place misremembered as well?

Best wishes

Phil

PS. Why do it there anyway? There's a police station only yards away! Leman St was good enough f6r Pizer?

[Cogidubnus]

The point being that to believe a clandestine ID situation at a Seaside Home on the subject of nailing Jack the Ripper, either the witness or the suspect or another factor would have to be of such import to go to such lengths to start with?

Hi Phil

But this was such a high profile case (with the press, especially the Star and the Pall Mall Gazette whipping up such pressure) they probably felt they simply HAD to get a result - any result - as quickly as possible...

The Police as a whole were not as secure then as they are today...many were still harking back to the days before the police force (hence why the detective force were a dirty underhand word, and the military drilling of PCs was criticised)...they were, therefore, probably very vulnerable too, and sensitive of, such criticism...

Bugger me...the glass is empty again...My incipient alcoholism is all your fault Phil!

All the best

Dave

[Phil Carter]

Not too early if, as some have offered, that the Seaside Home was an error for Seaman's Home, within Whitechapel.

Regards, Jon S.

Hello Jon,

err,,,just how much did Swanson get wrong then?
Because I would deem such information from anyone as unreliable. Place misremembered as well?

Best wishes

Phil

PS. Why do it there anyway? There's a police station only yards away! Leman St was good enough f6r Pizer?