Why did Macnaghten deny Cutbush as a serious suspect?

[White-Knight]

I am aware of Tom's history as described in The Sun, The Myth and the Broadmoor files, Natalie, though are you sure of an actual attack on an orderly? I thought he made some vicious threats but it was a fellow inmate he punched in the face and his mum he bit wasn't it?he wanted to attack them though, that seems to be in the files... Anyway as we both know the list of Tom's victims could be much longer than that which you provide here.

It was Mac I think a bit of a joke, albeit a bad one. worse than mine by the look of it.

Not Tom.very sick.very nasty.My chief suspect infact. apart from 'who'.

sometimes people deal with the dark side in different ways.

some use humour

still.. I'm new here..it was a crass and rather facile post.I'm sorry you found it offensive..I assume you did.. I've been hitting it hard lately..biblical slaughter and schizophrenia research ain't light reading.
I was tryin' to lighten up.

wrong subject, wrong place I guess.

Apologies again,


W.K.

[Natalie Severn]

White Knight,
I think it was mostly to do with the way Thomas Cutbush has been treated so far, that had me thinking here we go again! Anyone interested in Thomas Cutbush already has these missing years to deal with -between July 1888 and March 1891,when he was either flying through town in his night gown, acting the wierdo with a young couple in Camden,or up before the beak for stabbing women and being found unfit to plead and sent to Broadmoor in 1891.We dont know where he was or what he was doing in the Autumn of 1888,or any part of 1889 or 1890.We dont even have a date for the Westminster Bridge Road threatening behaviour episode with his doctor.Damn it!
Cheers
Norma

[White-Knight]

I'm very respetful of Tom's candidacy ,Natalie. I can see what you mean now though. I personally think Tom may have been descended into full blown schizoid episodes in the missing period.although I accept that the sun reports from which that is based are largely unsubstantiated. .before that period he is gathering speed, as it were getting dismissed for various deluded and homicidal acts and obsessively repeating the same paranoid delusions about the doctor and so on and after it he descends,again if we are to believe the Sun, eventually, into the speechless wreck described in the Broadmoor visit. no effective meds for schizophrenic paranoia in the lvp ..indeed no real diagnosis in the first place..Rest assured , I think he was more than capable, possibly increasingly devoid of his original/ real personality in a sense, spending increasing time under his particular delusions and in paranoia. Interestingly whilst looking at Broadmoor I found the modern criteria for diagnosing psychopathy..Tom could, from what is said in the files and the sun reports, at different points qualify for all these modern labels. very, very ill and nast I'd say..the files do ,as you say,suggest that much at least ..We may not know where he was before Broadmoor or in the sense of him being JTR who he was or exactly what he did but I think we can have a fair idea of what he was going through. And thats all very suggestive. And nasty.

I'm frustrated too, believe me. even posted AP specifically on the missing period in case I'd missed anything.Which I haven't.

I'm new here though.I can see how you would think what you did.
I aint no Trevor.I certainly aint no Cannucio!

no axe to grind.
just fascinated by 'beating the tom-tom', as AP might say..

didn't you know, apparently we are in the AP posse you and me!?

bit patronizing. lol. no disrepect to AP.

so as the leading Cutbushian might say himself,

'BANG A DRUM!'

all the best,

WK.

[Natalie Severn]

Well we all dance to different drums on here WK!
I like the way you see Cutbush.I mean whatever else he was a poor demented soul---

[perrymason]

It seems to me that in the past two years here there has never been the interest in Cutbush that there is today....multiple threads,...different facets of the case to be made against him.... to me it has the same level of interest as I have with the Druitt chats, or the Diary threads...in that, what is being done is to view comments and articles from a different perspective only....nothing new is really being added...and I believe that without anything new to cause such a perspective change, the big picture is remaining unaltered. At least with Cutbush it doesnt have to be retrospective realizations, like is needed with Druitt.

Nasty little men are not uncommon, and in what could easily be described as the epitome of a nasty man haven, he is still among the ones that fit some features.

Not technically on thread, but I am wondering why he is on the map so prominently lately.

Best regards all.

[Stephen Thomas]

It seems to me that in the past two years here there has never been the interest in Cutbush that there is today.......
I am wondering why he is on the map so prominently lately.

Hi Michael

It's because of the recent opening of the Broadmoor archives.

There has never been much interest in Cutbush as a suspect, hardly any in fact, even here on Casebook thanks to the hypnotic effect of that Macnaghton memorandum, a distinctly dodgy document if ever I saw one.

Cutbush has to be the top named suspect to my mind.

No-one else even comes close, apart from Kosminski of course.

IMHO.

[Ben]

It is ironic, I guess, that the suspect whose candidacy Macnaghten was vehemently arguing against is actually more plausible (IMO) than at least two of those named in his memoranda. But no, I'm afraid I wouldn't class him as a top suspect; just one of the slightly better ones out of a poor bunch.

Cheers,
Ben

[Cap'n Jack]

He's the only one who stabbed women though.
That helps.

[perrymason]

He's the only one who stabbed women though.
That helps.

Point taken AP, and I agree with the line between those lines, it takes a certain type to cut people I think. We might differ though on what "cut" really means in these cases, because for me, stabbing is tentative, unless it is specifically to kill. A single stab in the heart for example.

Thanks for the mention of the Broadmoor archives Stephen, I had forgotten that announcement here a while back.

I didnt mean to leave the impression he is not a good profile suspect in my opinion, only noting that the recent explosion on him seemed of interest in and of itself,... until I read Stephens post anyway.

Best regards all.

[White-Knight]

I can only speak for myself , Michael..and it seems your question has largely already been answered in the shape of the Broadmoor files..that certainly intensified my interest!I thought, before I hibernate for a week or so..duties call, I'd get this little lot off my chest ..hope you all don't mind but the whole subject has been close to my heart lately..

I think that if you look, at the waxing and waning of the suspects, for me at least, the explosion around Cutbush is more than just the recent files..although thr cynics amongst you are bound to think I am bound to say that..however ..I think its very much to do with what I will call the 'psychological motive' becoming more popular and..its something Stan Russo refers to when talking about suspectology...the importance of not 'who' but 'why' leading to the right doors and eliminating the unlikelies.I'm not saying this is necessarily the best way..but it seems to be the most popular currently and Tom, my favoured suspect ,does rather 'well' from it.

Whereas in the past the popularity of theories was more driven by the colour of the story..look at the hugely (but even now completely discredited) royal conspiracy stuff. ..or as the Mac memo surfaced and was scrutinized the 'police list'..Druitt is mainly on our suspect list because of his prominence here and a few cirumstantial facts. He killed himself, yes but as a real 'psych' suspect, he sucks..no real motive! I think now its more about the psychology of the suggested personalities. I think Cornwell ,for what its worth to mention that overpublicised nonsense, largely skipped over the police, in favour of being sucked in by the urge to colour and psych at the same time instead. Interseting that for a detective novelist!?? She found in Sickert an opportunity for larger than life plot..the famous artist with the morbid fascination for all things ripper and also a bit of psych motive ..how she strained to prove the unprovable with that fistula!

Many colourful stories still fuel other popular suspects..Tumblety's quack doctor escapades, Fegenbaum's sea voyages, the candidacy of Carrol or Barnardo..all are picaresque larger than life suspects, though obviously very real people. It sometimes seems we have needed the unbelievable to make it believable, if you know what i mean..it simply HAS to be a colourful story..not something typical or common or even too sordid or ugly. sensational,horriffic,evil yes..plain ugly deluded pedestrianly dangerous ,no.

The 'psych' angle, in our post- freudian , 'anlayze that' driven, crime media- influenced culture seems somehow the one that best fits our age..remember Tony Soprano?, the mafia boss who spent much of the crime show on the couch? He was a good rep for this 'psychology of the criminal' approach.The best 2 'psych' suspects have to be Kos and Tom. And if we want to find a suspect with a really screwed up, violent and probably even schizophrenic psychology, look no further than Tom-Tom! The other 'insanes' pale by comparison..on a scale of mental illness severity and type they can't really compete...Kos's major 'mental-ness' was eating out of the gutter, Tumblety was a self-agrandizing confidence trickster mainly, an egoist and his most notable 'psych' feature was probably his uterus collection.So psycholgically, the link to killer seems intially quite strong, by way of being 'a collector'.But why complete the job that way.. no, he might have funded Trevor's 'mortuary assistants' at best! Druitt..very sad story, clearly very depressed, probably repressed too with the one linke to the other, Fegenbaum a transient opportunist murderer and thief, a strange compulsion, but even if the wildest accounts are to be believed..to murder only..no motive whatever to mutilate.. Bury a violent and greedy alcoholic and gambler,every reason to be a copy-cat, no reason to be the ripper, Maybrick a drug addict...only on the list because of an elaborate forgery no motive whatsoever unless prostitutes also controlled the gents drugs of choice in the lvp!

I don't MEAN to sound altogether dismissive of these candidates. There are some real killers here..and all screwed up mentally, to some degree or other...but who was suffering a mental illness which provided a basis for a real motive?, one specific and intense enough to travel dangerous streets in the dead of night? and to repeatedly kill and mutilate women specifically of the prostitute class in the specific ways that he is documented to have done so?..who had a motive that powerful? ,that particular?...of the named.?.well in the absence of a mad midwife, as there doesn't seem to have been one mad enough, and the pregnancy of MJK was total myth..its a 'he' theres really only one 'decent' 'named' suspect left. Poor, crazy ,paranoid, deluded Tom Tom. If not, someone just like him.I'm not going to reproduce his 'story' such as it is, gaps notwithstanding...but to return to why now?...

At first people didn't like the sound of daylight stabbings,seemingly much,much lighter than the JTR work, but as time passes and schizophrenia becomes more popularly understood, the idea of different phases in patient history is, I can only imagine becoming more accepted.And it's in the right ball park..its still cutting with knives..still nasty..very nasty.

What I found convincing ,as well as some reading into the condition was some knowledge gained by knowing and experiencing the behaviour personally. And with modern treatments for the condition allowing some sufferers some level of interaction with ,even independance in the community, social ignorance is slowly being eroded, I think.

Also, do not be misled by the boards, though this site is the leading repository and has a raft of contributors infinitely more researched, well-read and knowledgable than I ,(so I'm sorry if I'm one of those not moving things forward.) it sometimes takes a change of wind for some of us to get up enough courage to come out of the shadows. I admit to being a fairweather Cutbushian..he became my favourite about 3 years ago, after a stint on Bury previously, but at that time I had no stomach for the fight. I have infact, followed theories since the seventies, my interest was furthered in the eighties when I met a descendant of one of the victims, and I have quietly harboured Tom Tom as a suspect since reading the memo some time after the Sutcliffe case,(who I remember well in the news..I was a tennager at the time) which made me question the judgement of coppers and allowed me to try out turning that memo on its head for the first time. I have since followed what I now believe to be many a false trail, maybe this is another..I may well change my mind again at some point, but probably because of the 'psych' angle Tom stays high on the list..even as others do come and go.. I have never done any, what I would call, real research, and I am tremendously indebted to those who have.I hope that others more skilled and equipped than myself will continue to find Tom a worthy subject and join the likes of AP and Natalie in what I personally think of as the most worthwhile study currently on the boards. I have tremendous respect for Trevor Marriott and Andy Spallek, who continue to do exactly what I would class as real research, though in my opinion, for reasons given, in much less pertinent areas.
Amateur in the extreme I might be, but I will not join the ranks of those who think this case can never be solved, though sure, as a non-researcher I stand absoloutely zero chance of contributing to that solution. I am happy to live in hope that I just might be one of those annoying people whose suspicions were eventually found to have been in the right direction..,or maybe, like Phil with his photo, got lucky!? So I for one am happy to ride this bandwagon. I wish those at the head of the train the best of luck and in the meantime I'll enjoy the perspectives and the chat..and I'm making no apologies for that! Maybe the best some of us can reasonably be expected to contribute is, through our questions and even our ignorance, to motivate and encourage others to properly and significantly change that general picture.

o.k .more than enough.
bye for a bit.

WK.

[Sara]

Earlier this week, reading the accounts of the Napper case and the police failure to identify and apprehend him in spiteof a mounting body of evidence pointing in his direction, I thought at once fo JRT. and especially of Thomas Cutbush. and the more I read on the Napper fiasco, and the ludicrous attitude of the police in every respect thougought Napper's murderous rampage, the more I thought of Cutbush.

There are so many parallels between Cutbush, Napper and my own idea of JRT, it sends shivers down the spine: the paranoid schizophrenia, the disturbed childhood, the abnormal early relationships, the ramping up of the violence - horrendous murders interspersed (possibly?) with far lesser crimes against women

I'd never until this week read a full account of the murder of Samantha Bisset, but the parallels with the Whitechapel killings are remarkable. The Nickell killing is very like that of Tabram. What is also remarkable is the variety of Napper's methods and the varied levels of violence and depravity - like Cutbush, it's hard to put a handle on what drove him, and very hard to link his crimes together in a pattern

Another thing all these three had in common, was extraordinary 'daring' - or recklessness rather - and quite uncommon luck, since they didn't seem to care much if they were seen.

When I looked at Napper's sullen arrogant face staring insolently into the camera lens, on his way back to Broodmoor, I saw Cutbush looking back at me

[Chris]

He's the only one who stabbed women though.
That helps.

One woman, wasn't it?

Out of interest, can anyone point me towards any detailed account of Florence Johnson's injuries?

Is it even clear that she was stabbed? The Times report from the police court says "feloniously cutting and wounding ... with intent to do grievous bodily harm", and Macnaghten says that Colicott had stabbed or jabbed/jobbed from behind, but that "The cuts in the girl's dresses made by Colicott were quite different to the cut(s) made by Cutbush (when he wounded Miss Johnson)". Isabel Anderson said that she felt a pull at her dress and a sound like tearing, and later found that her dress was cut. That doesn't sound much like a stab. (I can see that the Times later says Cutbush stabbed two women, but that's clearly inaccurate, at least in respect of Anderson.)

[Robert]

Hi Chris

Here's a link to some local coverage.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=2986

AP and I ordered the Broadmoor files, and I now have them (hopefully all of them - the envelope was open when it came through my door!). At first glance there is no record of Cutbush saying "I am Jack the Ripper. How do you do?" However the files are quite interesting, though it will take me some time, typing with one good finger and two dodgy eyes, to transcribe this lot (over 50 sheets).

Robert

[Chris]

Here's a link to some local coverage.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=2986

Thanks for that link.

She was in company with a female friend, and as they were near Prince’s-square Miss Johnson suddenly received a blow from behind, and felt she had received some injury. She turned round and then saw a man, who ran away. Upon arriving home her garments were found to be cut through, and upon being examined at Kennington-lane police-station by Dr.Farr it was found that she had received a wound on the lower part of her back.

It's interesting that there's no mention of any blood being seen when her clothes were found to be cut through. From that, it sounds as though the wound was rather superficial.

[Sara]

Well done Robert! Can't wait to hear what they reveal, even just in character terms