Why did Macnaghten deny Cutbush as a serious suspect?

[Sara]

<< I suppose the crutch piece of the discussion has to be Executive Superintendent Cutbush's role in the entire affair.... I know you'll agree with me that the suicide of such a high ranking officer is an extremely rare event in the history of British policing. .....

You said earlier that a person who commits suicide must be insane.
Well Stewart, I couldn't agree more. >>


You are both quite wrong.

In many circumstances even to a well-balanced mind, suicide can be a totally rational reaction to a combination of life crises, some of them inflicting repeated agonies either mental or physical.

In many situations, including terminal illness associated with chronic pain, or desperate grief, it may appear to be the ONLY rational course of action.

[diana]

Sara, I have to post this. Your last comment has been niggling away at me.

Given what happened recently in Florida, I feel I must ask you if you were speaking in generalities about suicide, or if it was more personal than that.

If you feel more comfortable PM'ing me that's fine.

I probably have embarrassed you for nothing and made a fool of myself, but the alternative would be worse.

[aspallek]

Having learned only minutes ago of the suicide of a former friend and colleague in the pastoral ministry reminds me that suicide is often in the mind of the victim a final "rational" act. My friend was was well-respected by his colleagues but was constantly re-buffed by a faction within his congregation, those he was trying to serve. I always considered him an extremely logical and pragmatic individual. Although he apparently left no note I suspect that he considered his final act to be perfectly rational despite the fact that he leaves a wife and two daughters.

Go figure.

[Cap'n Jack]

Just to keep things neat and sweet, folks, I'll point out that I was having a gentle dig at Stewart by turning his argument on himself; and that it is not my belief that a person who commits suicide is insane.
However for the purposes of history it is worth pointing out that suicide or even attempted suicide was a criminal offence in the LVP; and the poor souls who survived the attempt often found themselves locked up in an asylum for the rest of their lifes.

[Cap'n Jack]

How could Macnaghten, with all the sources available to him, have got the Thomas Cutbush story so wrong on the 23rd February 1894, when a newspaper half way across the world was able to get it so right on the 29th March 1894?
The 'Qu' Appelle Progress' from Canada:
'This man was born in 1863 in London. His father separated from his mother, whom he is said to have treated badly. In the case of the father, the morbid element appears in the ill-treatment of his wife, the neglect of his child, and finally in his flying from his responsibilities and in his contracting a bigamous marriage abroad. The boy was employed in several offices, but in none of them for a long time, and in nearly every case his dismissal came from some such irregularity as one would expect in the case of such a man. One of the worst of these irregularities was his constant irregularity of hours. He had begun at an early age that system of night walking and stopping in bed late in the mornings which finally developed into his turning night into day, and working under the protection of darkness his fiendish crimes. At the time when he committed the Whitechapel murders, this tendency had so far developed that he spent most of every day in bed, and it was not til 9 or 10 o'clock at night that he ever went forth.'

[Robert]

Hi AP

One explanation for Macnaghten's mistake about Thomas's father, might be that he had been reading the 1891 police reports, or talking to Race or McCarthy, and simply misread or misheard the word "brother" and substituted instead the word "father."

We know that Thomas had a younger brother, who died in infancy. Macnaghten's statement "his father died when he was quite young, and he was always a 'spoilt' child" seems to relate the spoiling to the death of the father - no fatherly discipline. But if the original police report said that his brother died when he was quite young and he was spoilt, then it still makes sense, since I suppose it's fairly normal for a mother who has lost one child to make a special fuss of the other one.

[Cap'n Jack]

Nicely done, Robert, but I fear we disagree here.
The early death of a father is a far more influential factor than the early death of a brother. I lost three brothers myself, but only recently a father.
Macnaghten is implying that the early death of his father was a contributing factor to his madness, as it would have been, loss of male role model and all that, but he wasn't dead was he?
He was siring bastards down under.
No good news for Thomas all round.
My impression of Thomas tells me that he wouldn't have given a jot either way.
Too busy with the currant buns.

[Robert]

Hi AP

Losing a father would indeed affect a child more than losing a brother (or in Thomas's case, never having had a father rather than losing him, since he couldn't have remembered his father). But just from the point of view of explaining Macnaghten's error, the brother/father mix-up might do. The way I read Macnaghten, he seems to be suggesting that Thomas's madness if anything was due to the syphilis. Or, as an alternative, inherited from his "excitable" mother and aunt.

[White-Knight]

mac denial

just to summarize, get directly back to the question, say hello and work in my two pennies..possible reasons for the denial of Cutbush as a suspect:

1.embarrassment.. the sun, and Race were making claims..if true :VERY embarassing for him, for the law..hadn't they been bashed enough?

2.His own theory..ever increasing violence and likely suicide.they don't though do they, serial killers , they go on till they're caught or killed..usually.. although there are exceptions.or are there? long periods of inactivity could be long gaps in activity..couldn't they?

3.cover up..and conspiracy..masonic ties, protection of the Cutbush family and its police officer member and of the class to which they belong..unproven ..like most things! but highly plausible...Cutbush family lots of fingers in a lot of pies ..well known ,respectable, middle class, property owning,rigid class prejudice demonstrably proven in the merest scan of LVP. free masonry popular in the police officer class too..apparently! We don't know what Mac knew or thought he knew about the name connection.But the name IS the connection isn't it? Its enough.Possibly.

4.Ignorance..(links to 2.)paranoid schizophrenia unknown at least by this term at the time although it seems some in the know where able to differentiate between various types of insanity..and levels of danger..Race leading ..enough at least to determine what level of security was required ..not Mac though, by the look of it. love the parallel to Sutcliffe and the man from Newcastle.. highly plausible.

There's been speculation that Mac knew more on these boards.There's been speculation that possible witnesses knew very little..because that's what they said..very little. I think the opposite is the more likely.Mac had every reason to divulge.Possible witnesses had far less..I think.

On Tom...AP and Natalie have it for me.

Mac only strengthens the case for Cutbush by his dismissiveness..its gotta be down to one or more of the above hasn't it? Sure its a response to the Sun but is this all he's got!?.. a few nutters with little or no pre-disposition to violence? It's not that good really is it?

Tom's particular box of crackers still seems the best fit to me..thought so long before this thread, thought so more after AP and now with the first files..still think so.....it was him or "who". I'd bet my pretty bonnet on it.

Don't forget the drawings too y'all!

And the family? well..your story might change a bit as your mind ran amok in disbelief ,suspicion, conviction, horror, uncertainty,protectiveness, influence of others...etc etc....

long admired your anlysis and researches Natalie and you too AP ..and your rigour and resources Mr Evans..look forward to more on this avenue..don't want to sound a sycophant but i am, as a poster ,new here , and i gotta at least say thanks for giving me much free and interesting reading..wish i had more time to research more myself..I am not worthy....

thanks.I'll shut up now.

WK

[ChrisGeorge]

Mac only strengthens the case for Cutbush by his dismissiveness..its gotta be down to one or more of the above hasn't it? Sure its a response to the Sun but is this all he's got!?.. a few nutters with little or no pre-disposition to violence? It's not that good really is it?

Hello White-Knight

Macnaghten's dismissiveness does not necessarily strengthen the case for Cutbush, although I will admit there may have been an element of Mac wanting to dispell suspicion that a suspect seemingly close to a senior police officer could have been the infamous Jack the Ripper.

Rather the memorandum neither strengthens nor weakens the case for Cutbush.

My thought is that Macnaghten, besides wanting to contradict a report naming a suspect who was a relative of a police official, genuinely thought there were better suspects than Cutbush, who, as far as anyone knew, had killed no one, despite his nutty behavior with the knife, and that he simply wanted the Home Office to know that The Sun were barking up the wrong tree in case questions were asked in Parliament about The Sun article. Comprendé?

All the best

Chris

[Cap'n Jack]

Thanks White Knight
your comment a tonic... which I'll take with some gin.
Tom Tom is a most interesting study I must say.
I first met him as a small boy when my mother gave me 'Tin Drum' to read, he was called Oscar then, but I knew it was him straight away.

[Cap'n Jack]

Chris
I believe the San Antonio fault that gapes in your argument is a young chap called Colicitt, or even Colicott.
For young Thomas and Colicitt were at the same time in court for identical crimes, and it was not a case of mistaken identity at all, but one walked free and the other sentenced to life.
Perhaps you would tell me why Mac did not think Colicitt was a viable suspect for Jack; or alternatively why the Sun did not suspect him of being the Ripper?
Tom Tom was sentenced to life is what makes all the difference, without a trial, to keep things sweet, comprende?

[White-Knight]

which begs the obvious question, Chris , why didn't he substantiate and elaborate on these genuine beliefs? surely he had every reason to do so..but he didn't ..did he?

no problem, thanks to you too and good evenin' cap'n! dab o' lime with that? give me a minute whilst I peruse me idiot's guide to German literature...to work out to what extent you may be taking the p***!? Ah yes, I see ...mmm child that wouldn't grow, mental institution, rise of horrors of Nazi-ism, manic drum beating,..sounds like the punk band I play in.....

WK.

[ChrisGeorge]

which begs the obvious question, Chris , why didn't he substantiate and elaborate on these genuine beliefs? surely he had every reason to do so..but he didn't ..did he?

Hi again White-Knight

You mean substantiate and elaborate on his genuine beliefs that Cutbush was not the Ripper? Isn't that like trying to prove a negative? He had no need to elaborate further if he was giving the Home Office the names of three men whom he thought were more likely to be the Ripper.

This shows the limitations of basing a theory on Macnaghten's memorandum or memoranda, in this case you and AP trying to build your case or Cutbush on what he was not saying: that is, the memorandum was not written for us. It was not meant to be a fully fleshed case for or against any of the suspects. Rather, Macnaghten was just presenting the Home Office with some notes on the men, if needed.

And AP, Cutbush was not sentenced to life was he? Because he wasn't tried, as you say. Rather he was put away as being a lunatic.

Best regards

Chris George

[Cap'n Jack]

Chris, you ignore Colicitt at your peril.
HMP means life.

Knights in White Satin
you have a punk band?
Letters I've written never meaning to send.
Grass captured the heart of the sexually confused boy in his absolute epic master work, and turned that boy into a man who was not sure about what his fingers did while he slept, so he beat a drum to keep beat to his madness.
Tom Tom beat similar drum.
Okay back to punk. The Sex Pistols 'Pretty Vacant', best song of century.
Tom Tom would have loved it.