Why did Macnaghten deny Cutbush as a serious suspect?

[Robert]

Hi Nats

It's something I must do, read up on the history of criminal lunacy. At the moment, I suspect that the politicians had grappled with these issues and, as usually happens with anything they grapple with, found it all quite beyond them.

[Natalie Severn]

Robert,
Did you know that psycopaths often "embezzle" and leave a trail of chaos in financial matters?It was probably a precaution until they discovered whether the person was just a wideboy or a real psychopath.

[Natalie Severn]

Do chill out Chris.My last post was quite clear .
Norma

[Robert]

Thanks AP.

Chris, there seems to have been some discretion as to who was sent to Broadmoor and who wasn't. On top of that, we seem to have patients being released from Broadmoor, or transferred to other asylums and then released, and even I think sent to Broadmoor when they'd committed crimes such as embezzlement. There was a case in 1894 where the Treasury directed the magistrate to remove a prisoner to Broadmoor, and the prisoner's counsel asked, unsuccessfully, that he be discharged since he had not been convicted of an offence and the prosecution (the Treasury) hadn't turned up in court to pursue the case. I suspect that during the time that Thomas was being observed by Dr Gilbert at Holloway, his behaviour exhibited unmistakeable signs that he was a threat to the safety of himself or others. Certainly he is described as dangerous in 1891 after his admission to Broadmoor.

[Chris]

Natalie

To be clear - when you said "Cutbush had crept up behind his doctor, drawn a gun on him and threatened to kill him", you had, as I said, got your information muddled. In fact, there is no allegation - even on the Sun's part - that Cutbush drew a gun on his doctor or anyone else.

And I'm sorry, but I don't have time to repeat the points I have already made - today and earlier - about the accuracy of the Sun articles. You can believe what they say if you like, but you shouldn't be surprised if others are more sceptical.

[Cap'n Jack]

Ben, obviously you never had an uncle who was in charge of the murder investigation in which you were the major suspect. Thomas did.
This does influence long and tedious proceedings.

[Chris]

Due respect and all that shite, Chris, but I think Robert was expecting a reply from you on the differing sentencing policies employed in the Cutbush and Colicitt cases.

In what respect?

[Cap'n Jack]

Your wish, Robert, my command.

[Natalie Severn]

You claimed that "Cutbush had crept up behind his doctor, drawn a gun on him and threatened to kill him". If you look at the Sun article you'll see where you've got muddled. The story in the Sun - if there is any truth at all in it - relates to someone else and there is no mention of a gun or a threat to kill the person - other than a suspicion in that person's own mind.

OK---the quote ,in The Sun ,is from a man with the initials D.G.- a person working in a legal office and having Cutbush arriving on several occasions wanting to discuss shooting Dr---[Brooks?]

"One day I was very busy with some papers when I suddenly realised somebody had silently and stealthily slid into the office,taken up a stand behind me. I felt at once that he was going to assault and possibly murder me,so I sprang up and faced him.It was Cutbush and so I closed with him and ran out of the office".
This passage directly follows on from another similar incident entitled ,"the story of SY".
" Cutbush called on me in 1891 and asked me to lend him a pistol to shoot Dr____.I have learnt from Mr DG that Cutbush was well known at the office and the police have reason to believe he is Jack the Ripper.This appears to be founded on a statement made by one person in a position to know that Cutbush,on several occasions late at night was seen with his left sleeve covered in blood;and the theory of the authorities was that the Whitechapel murders were done by a left handed man.

So there was a "threat to murder Dr____"
as well as a suspected intention to make a murderous assault on Mr DG.

Now Macnaghten in his memorandum states:

"he threatened to shoot Dr Brooks of Westminster Bridge Road for having supplied him with bad medicines"

and The Sun discusses the lead up to this threat to shoot a doctor --as above ---and goes on to describe an employee with the initials DG ,having had Cutbush creep up behind him and cause DG such alarm that he fled from the office.

I would still call it a cross reference even though you are correct in saying I was thinking of the DG incident.

Now can you do me the courtesy,Chris, of providing some "evidence" about the Sun"s dishonesty or reputation for dishonesty in reporting in 1888 or at any other time?

Thankyou

[Robert]

AP, could you post that item at reasonable size please? Computer playing up - I haven't even got Paint at the moment.

[Robert]

The Victorian policy on insanity seems to have been - er - insane.

Here's an item where a man was not sent to Broadmoor, because he hadn't been found guilty!

TIMES JUNE 14th 1895

[Ben]

If not caught when he was, there is no doubt in my mind that this simple 'jabbing' would have quickly turned to violent murder.

Very possibly, AP, which is why I believe that a strong argument can be made for Cutbush being an offender whose criminal career was in its infancy, and whose crimes could have escalated to the point of violent murder had he not been caught, as opposed to an offender who had already reached that stage.

Best regards,
Ben

[Roy Corduroy]

Something caused Inspector Race, the arresting officer in 1891, to suspect Cutbush of being the Ripper. Race got the ball rolling and thank you Stewart and Jake for the information earlier in this thread about him.

Mac's memo only made mention of three other policemen - "Cutbush's antecedents were enquired into by C.Insp (now Supt.) Chris by Inspector Hale, and by P.S. McCarthy C.I.D. -- (the last named officer had been specially employed in Whitechapel at the time of the murders there,) -- and it was ascertained that he was born, and had lived, in Kennington all his life."

Underline mine.

Did Insp. Race also work in Whitechapel at the time of the murders?

Roy

PS - Looking forward to hearing what you have to share from the newly released files.

[Cap'n Jack]

'Yes - strictly I should have said Cutbush was indicted on a criminal charge. But my point was that the difference between him and Aaron Kozminski is that the latter wasn't committed as a result of any criminal charge.'

Due respect and all that shite, Chris, but I think Robert was expecting a reply from you on the differing sentencing policies employed in the Cutbush and Colicitt cases.

[Cap'n Jack]

'None of this rules out Cutbush as JTR, but on the other hand, we would need to accept that the whole learning/emboldening/progressing process happened in reverse towards the end.'

Ben, my opinion has always been that Thomas saw his escalation period during 1888, when he threw that old chap down the stairs, and was then confined in an institution where he underwent some kind of treatment to 'cure' him. It was a common misconception in the LVP that such violent behaviour in young men could be cured by a two year stay in a private institution where they would be unable to indulge in masturbation which was held as the root cause of all their problems.
'Cured' in 1891, Thomas would have been released onto the streets, and without even waiting for nightfall would have been jabbing at some kind of reality. If not caught when he was, there is no doubt in my mind that this simple 'jabbing' would have quickly turned to violent murder.
He was just getting back. Not going forward.