Why did Macnaghten deny Cutbush as a serious suspect?

[Robert]

Hi all

Let's not give Chris a hard time for appearing with horns and tail in our Cutbushian paradise, for we need such folk. But I myself need to spend time re-reading my holy texts, so I'll be mostly a bystander.

[Robert]

Chris, I believe these Sun reports are of value, but it will require a textual analysis to try to disentangle the threads. The Sun seems to have leaned on the Lloyd's article, as indeed does Macnaghten. One point : the Sun seems to have been in communication with Kate Cutbush (or with the officers who questioned her) concerning Thomas's father, for it has the correct account of the father's subsequent bigamy, while Macnaghten says that the father died. It's tempting to defend the Sun by pointing to Macnaghten's sloppiness, but I myself would rather just concentrate on the Sun, while holding fire till I've read and re-read all these articles and tried to map out the evolution of the reports.

[Cap'n Jack]

'If the Sun reporter had really researched the Cutbush case with any care at all, how on earth did he come to believe that Cutbush had been charged with stabbing "either four or six young women" , when in fact he had been charged with wounding only one?'

er, well, perhaps because the Sun made the perfectly rational decision that the case of Colicitt was a case of mistaken identity, and that Cutbush had stabbed all the women concerned in the twin cases?
And that this opinion was provided by a senior serving officer directly involved in the twin cases?
This is not rocket science, you daft bun.

[Stephen Thomas]

So who or what do you think was Jack the Ripper, Chris?

You see to know all about who or what it wasn't.

[Chris]

Also obvious is the fact that the newspaper had researched the Cutbush case with great care and in great detail ...

If the Sun reporter had really researched the Cutbush case with any care at all, how on earth did he come to believe that Cutbush had been charged with stabbing "either four or six young women" , when in fact he had been charged with wounding only one?

If he could get such a basic fact wrong - about something that was a matter of public record and could easily be checked by referring to the Times, for example - what reliance can be placed on all the other allegations that don't come from any identifiable source and can't be independently verified?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

One of the versions of the Macnaghten Memorandum mentions PS McCarthy being specially drafted into Whitechapel at the time of the murders.

AP has the full skinny on PS McCarthy, who in December 1887 was a member of Littlechild's Section 'D' and in 1918 retired as a Special Branch Superintendent.

Ask AP about McCarthy's horse betting scam.

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

Do you know who PS McCarthy CID is?

And the other policeman's name, who is it?

Any thoughts?

[Robert]

I think the Sun offered to turn its dossier over to the police, if they were interested. As there were only four or five days between the last of the Sun articles and Macnaghten's memorandum, it looks as though he, at least, wasn't interested! One wonders whether he knew for a fact either
1. Thomas was not JTR (though Macnaghten doesn't mention any alibi, etc)
2. Thomas was JTR

[Cap'n Jack]

The Sun appeared to be in the possession of a large number of documents relating to the Cutbush case - which they really shouldn't have been - including witness statements, letters from Cutbush, letters about Cutbush and various others... and some of these must have been supplied to the Sun by a senior serving officer of the Metropolitan Police Force.
Also obvious is the fact that the newspaper had researched the Cutbush case with great care and in great detail, tracking down witnessess, work records and many other important material relating to Cutbush.
The suggestion that these very real people and incidents are the fabrication of a journalist bent on pure sensationalism is really beyond the pale.
If you want sensationalism try one of the most senior police officers of the land sitting down in his kitchen and blowing his head off with his service pistol in front of his daughter.
Funny that, eh? That the story never reached the press.
One would have thought the journalist bent on sensationalism would have had a field day with that one.

I'm reminded of a chicken scratching at an empty corn bowl.

[White-Knight]

Chisholm..he was the plod in Minder!
blimey, he must have had a long career!
seriouly though, good luck with them pesky coppers!

Chris, I have had the same concerns with the Sun but one can apply too modern an ear ..we are a sophisticated media audience these days.you may have been duped by its sensational tone..rather than so-called Cutbushians being duped by its reports.. you are right to demand more cross reference though, Mac does give some, but not much and he too accuses them of sensationalism .. the 'drawings' a good and pointed example. I don't take the Sun as gospel but I haven't seen much 'proof' it is far wide either,and I wouldn't trust old macca further than I could throw him, he was either daft, crafty or a bit of both to put those 3 in front of Tom, who was at the very least on nodding terms with knife crime.

escalation, de-escalation...its all part of the paranoid cycle..proves, disproves nothing. except Mac was no psychologist.


Robert..do tell!


WK.

[Roy Corduroy]

Thank you Chris. Yes I see the handwritten name Race.

In the memo, two other officers are named as "tracing the antecedants" of Cutbush. (1) P. S. McCarthy CID, who "worked in Whitechapel at the time of the murders." Do we know more about him? (2) Ch Insp (now Supr) Chris/Chis/Chism (sp?) or is that Chisholm? A Ch Insp Chisholm is in a news report under the title

Police Intelligence
Lambeth

In a news report on Page 4 here.

Could this be the officer referred to in the memo?

Roy

[Chris]

But the memo didn't say Race.

The Memo:

"...other inaccuracies and misleading statements made by 'The Sun'. ...the writer has in his possession a facsimile of the knife with which the murders were committed. This knife (which for some unexplained reason has, for the last 3 years, been kept by Inspector Hale, instead of being sent to Prisoner's Property Store) was traced...

So Macnaghten got that part wrong. Maybe.

In that transcript, "Hale" is a misreading for "Race" (though a fairly understandable one). That's clear from the image of the original -http://www.casebook.org/images/memo.pdf - compare the initial with the "R" of "Westminster Bridge Rd" on the following page.

[Roy Corduroy]

minutiae

It would appear that Race had nursed this idea since he arrested Cutbush in 1891 and had kept up with Cutbush's state in the asylum. It would also appear that Race had kept Cutbush's knife as 'evidence'. ...He must have been the Sun's early informant...

But the memo didn't say Race.

The Memo:

"...other inaccuracies and misleading statements made by 'The Sun'. ...the writer has in his possession a facsimile of the knife with which the murders were committed. This knife (which for some unexplained reason has, for the last 3 years, been kept by Inspector Hale, instead of being sent to Prisoner's Property Store) was traced...

So Macnaghten got that part wrong. Maybe.

To me, Insp. Race is important. Without his suspicions we are not having this conversation, and there was no memo. (Ponder that..all those cricket matches out the window)

Roy

[Chris]

I suspect that during the time that Thomas was being observed by Dr Gilbert at Holloway, his behaviour exhibited unmistakeable signs that he was a threat to the safety of himself or others. Certainly he is described as dangerous in 1891 after his admission to Broadmoor.

I suppose that if he had (or was believed to have) wounded someone with a knife, that would be sufficient evidence that he was dangerous to others, even if the wound wasn't a serious one.

I still don't really understand why such importance seems to be attached to this question. In itself it doesn't seem to tell us much at all. Now if his records told us that he fantasised about murdering and mutilating women, that might be different ...

PS Am I the only one who can't work out which in which murder investigation Thomas Cutbush was the major suspect, or who was his uncle in charge of that investigation?

[Chris]

Do chill out Chris.My last post was quite clear .

I didn't think it was at all clear from your last post that the part about Cutbush drawing a gun on his doctor and threatening his life was a mistake. That's what I wanted to clarify.

And I am perfectly "chilled", thanks. I just think it's important to get the facts straight.