Why did Macnaghten deny Cutbush as a serious suspect?

[Chris]

Natalie

You've often pointed out that there's no real evidence - or rather no evidence that's tangible to us - to associate suspects such as Aaron Kozminski with the Whitechapel Murders. And - I hope - I've always agreed with you.

I just think the same thing has to apply to Cutbush. Much of the Sun reports read to me like cheap melodrama. I wouldn't accept a word of them without proper contemporary documentation. I should love to see a critical analysis of those reports with reference to outside evidence - set against a similar analysis of the Cutbush portions of the Macnaghten Memoranda. I don't know whether that's ever been done.

At the moment it seems to me as though the Cutbushite(s) is/are bent on accepting every word of the Sun reports as Gospel Truth - which they are obviously not.

[Natalie Severn]

Chris,
The Sun Newspaper of 1888 was a very serious newspaper on a par with the likes of The Daily Telegraph.It is therefore unlikely that reporters made claims that were unfounded.
Moreover,there are records showing that the MP Henry Labouchere was shown the material that Inspector Race had gathered on Thomas Cutbush after he had arrested him and which was used by The Sun in their articles.Labouchere was no more convinced,however, that Thomas Cutbush was Jack the Ripper, after reading it ,than he had been after reading the articles in The Sun.The reason he gave was that the evidence was still purely circumstantial and needed to be much more concrete and substantial.
In the case of Robert Napper ,it was much the same-ie until DNA came along.The police had ,according to Paul Britton,their crime profiler , closed minds about Napper, who they had interviewed and even called to see at his flat when he was out,they dismissed him partly on the basis of witness statements saying the suspect was shorter than Napper"s 6ft 2ins,and partly because they totally disagreed with Britton that the man who killed Rachel Nickell was the same man who had killed Samantha Bissett and her child, Jazmine.The police position was clearly that they did not have,as far as they could see, "the same signature"-----and how tragically wrong they were to be proved in that ! Rachel Nickell was a frenzied knife attack ,while Samantha Bisset was mutilated and left in much the same arrangement as Mary Kelly.

[Cap'n Jack]

Thanks Robert, and no worries, all will be done when I'm sober.

[Chris]

AP

Perhaps at least we can agree that there is no evidence that Cutbush stabbed, or attempted to stab, anyone other than Johnson and Anderson. And that even if - despite all appearances - the Sun was quoting a genuine letter written by the father of one of the victims, there is no indication that "F K" was the father of Johnson.

As for the "quotation" about Jack the Ripper which you attribute to Thomas Cutbush, again this comes from the Sun reports of 1894, where it is put into the mouth of a mysterious stranger with a concealed face, speaking - supposedly - to an equally mysterious witness known only as "W K". Who knows where any of this stuff really comes from?

[Stephen Thomas]

Thomas himself is best judge and jury:

'"You must know," said he, "that they say I am Jack the Ripper - but I am not, though all their inside are open and their bowels are all out. I am a medical man, you know, but not Jack the Ripper - you must not think I am. But they do, and they are after me, and the runners are after me, for they want the £500 which is offered for my capture, and I have only been cutting up girls and laying them out."

Yes AP, a telling contemporary quote and yet so many people think that Cutbush is a total non-starter in the Ripper Suspect Stakes. Weird.

[Robert]

AP, I will email you in a few minutes about the case notes.

[Cap'n Jack]

Chris, because Colicitt was dismissed by the Treasury into his father's custody it still remains unclear to us exactly how many women Cutbush stabbed in that brief spree; so given the information the Sun had available at that time, supplied to them by a senior officer of the Met, their efforts should not be disregarded or cast aside in such simple fashion.
The fact of the matter is that the Treasury attempted to pass the blame of all six victims onto young Thomas - which he strongly denied - by claiming mistaken identification.
Thomas himself is best judge and jury:

'"You must know," said he, "that they say I am Jack the Ripper - but I am not, though all their inside are open and their bowels are all out. I am a medical man, you know, but not Jack the Ripper - you must not think I am. But they do, and they are after me, and the runners are after me, for they want the £500 which is offered for my capture, and I have only been cutting up girls and laying them out."

[Chris]

AP

I don't know what you mean about my "concerns". I simply asked for information and made a rather obvious comment - that the wound seems to have been a superficial one.

As for the letter you quote, which you say was written to the press by Florence Johnson's father - it was actually printed in the Sun of 15 February 1894, where it is claimed it was written to the police by one "F K" , described as "the father of one of the girls stabbed". (Recall that the journalist mistakenly thought Cutbush had stabbed six girls.)

I'm not actually sure why you quote it, as it doesn't say anything whatsoever about the wounds inflicted (by Cutbush, Colicott or whoever). If it's anything other than a journalistic invention, it sounds more like a letter written by a concerned member of the public than like a letter from a victim's father. Do you really think a victim's father would write a letter to the police beginning "Pardon me for suggesting an idea which has probably occurred to you in connection with the recent stabbing cases in this neighbourhood"?

[Cap'n Jack]

It is faintly amusing that Chris's concerns about the wound inflicted on the victim was not shared by the victim's father, who saw it as a very serious matter indeed, and wrote a letter to the press expressing his concerns, part of which I quote here:
'Pardon me for suggesting an idea which has probably occurred to you in connection with the recent stabbing cases in this neighbourhood. The dagger which was found on the man now under detention is just such a one as was probably used with such dreadful success at Whitechapel, and there are several points of resemblance in the cases although those now before us are now trivial compared with the magnitude of the Whitechapel tragedies. This fellow approaches his victims from the back, and with such a weapon could very easily commit a Whitechapel murder and escape without showing any blood marks. He is catlike in his approach, very fleet of foot, and he can approach his victim unheard, and if true that he has a second dagger and revolver at home, it is probable they are intended for use in the event of an attempted capture. I think you will find on inquiry that one of the Whitechapel victims was seen in company of a man with a light coat shortly before the murder. His return - after a long absence with bleeding feet is very suggestive, and shows that his operations are performed some distance from _____.'

Nice to have you back, Robert. I trust your eyes are better than mine!

[Sara]

Well done Robert! Can't wait to hear what they reveal, even just in character terms

[Chris]

Here's a link to some local coverage.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=2986

Thanks for that link.

She was in company with a female friend, and as they were near Prince’s-square Miss Johnson suddenly received a blow from behind, and felt she had received some injury. She turned round and then saw a man, who ran away. Upon arriving home her garments were found to be cut through, and upon being examined at Kennington-lane police-station by Dr.Farr it was found that she had received a wound on the lower part of her back.

It's interesting that there's no mention of any blood being seen when her clothes were found to be cut through. From that, it sounds as though the wound was rather superficial.

[Robert]

Hi Chris

Here's a link to some local coverage.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=2986

AP and I ordered the Broadmoor files, and I now have them (hopefully all of them - the envelope was open when it came through my door!). At first glance there is no record of Cutbush saying "I am Jack the Ripper. How do you do?" However the files are quite interesting, though it will take me some time, typing with one good finger and two dodgy eyes, to transcribe this lot (over 50 sheets).

Robert

[Chris]

He's the only one who stabbed women though.
That helps.

One woman, wasn't it?

Out of interest, can anyone point me towards any detailed account of Florence Johnson's injuries?

Is it even clear that she was stabbed? The Times report from the police court says "feloniously cutting and wounding ... with intent to do grievous bodily harm", and Macnaghten says that Colicott had stabbed or jabbed/jobbed from behind, but that "The cuts in the girl's dresses made by Colicott were quite different to the cut(s) made by Cutbush (when he wounded Miss Johnson)". Isabel Anderson said that she felt a pull at her dress and a sound like tearing, and later found that her dress was cut. That doesn't sound much like a stab. (I can see that the Times later says Cutbush stabbed two women, but that's clearly inaccurate, at least in respect of Anderson.)

[Sara]

Earlier this week, reading the accounts of the Napper case and the police failure to identify and apprehend him in spiteof a mounting body of evidence pointing in his direction, I thought at once fo JRT. and especially of Thomas Cutbush. and the more I read on the Napper fiasco, and the ludicrous attitude of the police in every respect thougought Napper's murderous rampage, the more I thought of Cutbush.

There are so many parallels between Cutbush, Napper and my own idea of JRT, it sends shivers down the spine: the paranoid schizophrenia, the disturbed childhood, the abnormal early relationships, the ramping up of the violence - horrendous murders interspersed (possibly?) with far lesser crimes against women

I'd never until this week read a full account of the murder of Samantha Bisset, but the parallels with the Whitechapel killings are remarkable. The Nickell killing is very like that of Tabram. What is also remarkable is the variety of Napper's methods and the varied levels of violence and depravity - like Cutbush, it's hard to put a handle on what drove him, and very hard to link his crimes together in a pattern

Another thing all these three had in common, was extraordinary 'daring' - or recklessness rather - and quite uncommon luck, since they didn't seem to care much if they were seen.

When I looked at Napper's sullen arrogant face staring insolently into the camera lens, on his way back to Broodmoor, I saw Cutbush looking back at me

[White-Knight]

I can only speak for myself , Michael..and it seems your question has largely already been answered in the shape of the Broadmoor files..that certainly intensified my interest!I thought, before I hibernate for a week or so..duties call, I'd get this little lot off my chest ..hope you all don't mind but the whole subject has been close to my heart lately..

I think that if you look, at the waxing and waning of the suspects, for me at least, the explosion around Cutbush is more than just the recent files..although thr cynics amongst you are bound to think I am bound to say that..however ..I think its very much to do with what I will call the 'psychological motive' becoming more popular and..its something Stan Russo refers to when talking about suspectology...the importance of not 'who' but 'why' leading to the right doors and eliminating the unlikelies.I'm not saying this is necessarily the best way..but it seems to be the most popular currently and Tom, my favoured suspect ,does rather 'well' from it.

Whereas in the past the popularity of theories was more driven by the colour of the story..look at the hugely (but even now completely discredited) royal conspiracy stuff. ..or as the Mac memo surfaced and was scrutinized the 'police list'..Druitt is mainly on our suspect list because of his prominence here and a few cirumstantial facts. He killed himself, yes but as a real 'psych' suspect, he sucks..no real motive! I think now its more about the psychology of the suggested personalities. I think Cornwell ,for what its worth to mention that overpublicised nonsense, largely skipped over the police, in favour of being sucked in by the urge to colour and psych at the same time instead. Interseting that for a detective novelist!?? She found in Sickert an opportunity for larger than life plot..the famous artist with the morbid fascination for all things ripper and also a bit of psych motive ..how she strained to prove the unprovable with that fistula!

Many colourful stories still fuel other popular suspects..Tumblety's quack doctor escapades, Fegenbaum's sea voyages, the candidacy of Carrol or Barnardo..all are picaresque larger than life suspects, though obviously very real people. It sometimes seems we have needed the unbelievable to make it believable, if you know what i mean..it simply HAS to be a colourful story..not something typical or common or even too sordid or ugly. sensational,horriffic,evil yes..plain ugly deluded pedestrianly dangerous ,no.

The 'psych' angle, in our post- freudian , 'anlayze that' driven, crime media- influenced culture seems somehow the one that best fits our age..remember Tony Soprano?, the mafia boss who spent much of the crime show on the couch? He was a good rep for this 'psychology of the criminal' approach.The best 2 'psych' suspects have to be Kos and Tom. And if we want to find a suspect with a really screwed up, violent and probably even schizophrenic psychology, look no further than Tom-Tom! The other 'insanes' pale by comparison..on a scale of mental illness severity and type they can't really compete...Kos's major 'mental-ness' was eating out of the gutter, Tumblety was a self-agrandizing confidence trickster mainly, an egoist and his most notable 'psych' feature was probably his uterus collection.So psycholgically, the link to killer seems intially quite strong, by way of being 'a collector'.But why complete the job that way.. no, he might have funded Trevor's 'mortuary assistants' at best! Druitt..very sad story, clearly very depressed, probably repressed too with the one linke to the other, Fegenbaum a transient opportunist murderer and thief, a strange compulsion, but even if the wildest accounts are to be believed..to murder only..no motive whatever to mutilate.. Bury a violent and greedy alcoholic and gambler,every reason to be a copy-cat, no reason to be the ripper, Maybrick a drug addict...only on the list because of an elaborate forgery no motive whatsoever unless prostitutes also controlled the gents drugs of choice in the lvp!

I don't MEAN to sound altogether dismissive of these candidates. There are some real killers here..and all screwed up mentally, to some degree or other...but who was suffering a mental illness which provided a basis for a real motive?, one specific and intense enough to travel dangerous streets in the dead of night? and to repeatedly kill and mutilate women specifically of the prostitute class in the specific ways that he is documented to have done so?..who had a motive that powerful? ,that particular?...of the named.?.well in the absence of a mad midwife, as there doesn't seem to have been one mad enough, and the pregnancy of MJK was total myth..its a 'he' theres really only one 'decent' 'named' suspect left. Poor, crazy ,paranoid, deluded Tom Tom. If not, someone just like him.I'm not going to reproduce his 'story' such as it is, gaps notwithstanding...but to return to why now?...

At first people didn't like the sound of daylight stabbings,seemingly much,much lighter than the JTR work, but as time passes and schizophrenia becomes more popularly understood, the idea of different phases in patient history is, I can only imagine becoming more accepted.And it's in the right ball park..its still cutting with knives..still nasty..very nasty.

What I found convincing ,as well as some reading into the condition was some knowledge gained by knowing and experiencing the behaviour personally. And with modern treatments for the condition allowing some sufferers some level of interaction with ,even independance in the community, social ignorance is slowly being eroded, I think.

Also, do not be misled by the boards, though this site is the leading repository and has a raft of contributors infinitely more researched, well-read and knowledgable than I ,(so I'm sorry if I'm one of those not moving things forward.) it sometimes takes a change of wind for some of us to get up enough courage to come out of the shadows. I admit to being a fairweather Cutbushian..he became my favourite about 3 years ago, after a stint on Bury previously, but at that time I had no stomach for the fight. I have infact, followed theories since the seventies, my interest was furthered in the eighties when I met a descendant of one of the victims, and I have quietly harboured Tom Tom as a suspect since reading the memo some time after the Sutcliffe case,(who I remember well in the news..I was a tennager at the time) which made me question the judgement of coppers and allowed me to try out turning that memo on its head for the first time. I have since followed what I now believe to be many a false trail, maybe this is another..I may well change my mind again at some point, but probably because of the 'psych' angle Tom stays high on the list..even as others do come and go.. I have never done any, what I would call, real research, and I am tremendously indebted to those who have.I hope that others more skilled and equipped than myself will continue to find Tom a worthy subject and join the likes of AP and Natalie in what I personally think of as the most worthwhile study currently on the boards. I have tremendous respect for Trevor Marriott and Andy Spallek, who continue to do exactly what I would class as real research, though in my opinion, for reasons given, in much less pertinent areas.
Amateur in the extreme I might be, but I will not join the ranks of those who think this case can never be solved, though sure, as a non-researcher I stand absoloutely zero chance of contributing to that solution. I am happy to live in hope that I just might be one of those annoying people whose suspicions were eventually found to have been in the right direction..,or maybe, like Phil with his photo, got lucky!? So I for one am happy to ride this bandwagon. I wish those at the head of the train the best of luck and in the meantime I'll enjoy the perspectives and the chat..and I'm making no apologies for that! Maybe the best some of us can reasonably be expected to contribute is, through our questions and even our ignorance, to motivate and encourage others to properly and significantly change that general picture.

o.k .more than enough.
bye for a bit.

WK.