The could be knife Thomas Coram found on October the 1st 1888

[Roy Corduroy]

I lived in the East End of London, in the heart where Jack the ripper commited his horrific murders. At the age of seventeen whilst working in a near by railway arch to my home i unburried a knife.

I can't think of a better place to start, uncovering an old knife there. Thanks for sharing. It's good to have you, an East Ender with us, and I wish you well studying the old murders.

Roy

[niko]

Well Niko, in a cosmic sense, anything is possible. But just to give you an idea about how weapons make it to museums and such:

Anything buried is inherently protected from the direct effect of the elements. Of course water seeps into the soil after rain, even soil under a bridge or railway. The problem with the soil in London is that it tends to be very wet and highly acidic. Especially within a couple of miles of the Thames. It is the worst possible place to try and find an intact weapon that predates the sixties. Not only is that where most of the pollutants from the industrial revolution tend to be, but it is where the pollution from the Thames gets deposited. North London does better, because it has clay soil which protects the metal and the wood in an almost waterproof environment. Chalk soil can also yield some finds because it tends to stay relatively dry.

Soil stratifies the way rock does. Rock strata indicate geological age, soil strata indicates historical age. Any weapon that was buried prior to the industrial revolution has a much better shot at surviving. The greatest weapons finds that we have made have predated the 19th century, and have been in clay deposits. Farmers who find swords in their fields have typically been digging well below the topsoil layers, disturbing earth from several hundred years ago. And the best metal finds have always come from having been buried in something. Even if the container rots away (like at Sutton Hoo) the negative space tends to be preserved, leaving essentially a wine cave for metal. Also single metal weapons wear better than alloys.

quote i repeat, how can i say, the mian componet of the arch floor was grease, i supose in the old days thet would use alot of grease for the horses leathers and i supose to grease up the carriage springs. The knife was burried in between 20 to 25 cm deep, the knife was covered in a sort of black crust and had no symptoms or rust in any way. my late grandfarther was a sort of blacksmith, he started working from an early age, he use to tell me that shoeing horses and ox was a common job, i still have tools which were made by him and one thing he use to tell me to maintain tools in good state, they must be regulary greased. I belive were there ws so much grease mixed with the superficial floor, this causing the knife from not rotting, the cloth that was wraping the handle was rotten and fell to pieces. What im trying to say is that i think the knife was burried, protected by GREASE sorry for insisting, one thing i canot tell you is how long its been burried, all the best..

[Stephen Thomas]

Well Niko, in a cosmic sense, anything is possible..

And in a comic sense also.

[The Grave Maurice]

Me, I don't know anything about knives. But I enjoyed your story, Niko, and appreciated the photo. (I liked the way you used a ciggie for scale.) Nice to have you with us.

[Errata]

HI, the arch is in what before was called lower Chapman Street, five minutes walkung distance from the Berner club on BernerStreet.

That knife? I've never seen that handle type until after WWII. Before that handles were pretty much straight from the blade to the butt. Even then you don't see a dual material handle like that til the 60s.

[Errata]

Hi, i found the knife in the early 8os, i disagree with you about the corrosion of the metal, dueing that the arch floor was covered by the roof of the arch , this preventing the weather afecting the knife or soil or earth, i do agree about the wooden handle rotting, but i think the wood is of high class ( noble wood). When i worked in the arch it was a London cab garage, and i heard that in the olden days this row of arches were stables, the arch floor did not have cement nor concrete, the arch floor was composed of layer of earth grit and grease, this last mentioned i belive helped the conservation of the knife, i have also heard of farmers finding medevil swords in there fields, the only thing is i dont know the conditions of the swords found, all the best.

Well Niko, in a cosmic sense, anything is possible. But just to give you an idea about how weapons make it to museums and such:

Anything buried is inherently protected from the direct effect of the elements. Of course water seeps into the soil after rain, even soil under a bridge or railway. The problem with the soil in London is that it tends to be very wet and highly acidic. Especially within a couple of miles of the Thames. It is the worst possible place to try and find an intact weapon that predates the sixties. Not only is that where most of the pollutants from the industrial revolution tend to be, but it is where the pollution from the Thames gets deposited. North London does better, because it has clay soil which protects the metal and the wood in an almost waterproof environment. Chalk soil can also yield some finds because it tends to stay relatively dry.

Soil stratifies the way rock does. Rock strata indicate geological age, soil strata indicates historical age. Any weapon that was buried prior to the industrial revolution has a much better shot at surviving. The greatest weapons finds that we have made have predated the 19th century, and have been in clay deposits. Farmers who find swords in their fields have typically been digging well below the topsoil layers, disturbing earth from several hundred years ago. And the best metal finds have always come from having been buried in something. Even if the container rots away (like at Sutton Hoo) the negative space tends to be preserved, leaving essentially a wine cave for metal. Also single metal weapons wear better than alloys.

[Archaic]

Hi Niko.

Welcome to Casebook, and thanks for posting the photo.

That certainly is a large knife; the wide blade is almost of the meat-cleaver type.

Though we don't know what kind of blade the Ripper used, a double-edged Liston-type surgical knife is a good possibility. They have extremely sharp straight blades that often taper at the end.

There's probably no way after all these years to tie your knife to any particular individual, let alone to Jack the Ripper,
but there's always at least the possibility that your knife was used in some kind of crime and that's why it was buried.

Are there any marks (symbols) or signatures anywhere on your knife? More modern blades have maker's marks and also might be stamped "stainless steel". Older blades often have marks too but they will be different.

If you want to find out more about your knife, such as what era it might be from and what its original use was, you could take a number of good photos and then check with some antiques dealers who specialize in knives. You can also google "antique knife collectors" and some helpful info should pop up.
(I wouldn't suggest carrying a blade that size around with you when you make your initial inquiries. )

Good luck,
Archaic

[niko]

reply monty.

Yes Niko,

Its Cable Street way.

You must admit, your story requires some leaps of faith.

Monty

Hello, paralel with cable st, in the olden days the entrances, were facing Cable Street but now the entrances are from Chapman Street. Apart from lorry fulls of faith and intuition, lack facts. my belief is that someone knew about the knife being there, but not exactly where, ok Monty all the best.

[Monty]

Yes Niko,

Its Cable Street way.

You must admit, your story requires some leaps of faith.

Monty

[niko]

the arch floor.

I think it is unlikely that the knife was buried for more than 20 years. Most of London including the East End has incredibly corrosive soil. Anything that doesn't predate industrialization tends to get eaten very quickly. Certainly a wooden handle would not survive much more than 20 years, and blades almost never last more than 50 years. If you were able to straighten the blade and grind it without it either snapping or crumbling, it probably only dates back to the seventies.

Hi, i found the knife in the early 8os, i disagree with you about the corrosion of the metal, dueing that the arch floor was covered by the roof of the arch , this preventing the weather afecting the knife or soil or earth, i do agree about the wooden handle rotting, but i think the wood is of high class ( noble wood). When i worked in the arch it was a London cab garage, and i heard that in the olden days this row of arches were stables, the arch floor did not have cement nor concrete, the arch floor was composed of layer of earth grit and grease, this last mentioned i belive helped the conservation of the knife, i have also heard of farmers finding medevil swords in there fields, the only thing is i dont know the conditions of the swords found, all the best.

[niko]

reply to Monty.

Ok, I'll bite.....

......Where was this arch?

Monty

HI, the arch is in what before was called lower Chapman Street, five minutes walkung distance from the Berner club on BernerStreet.

[Errata]

I think it is unlikely that the knife was buried for more than 20 years. Most of London including the East End has incredibly corrosive soil. Anything that doesn't predate industrialization tends to get eaten very quickly. Certainly a wooden handle would not survive much more than 20 years, and blades almost never last more than 50 years. If you were able to straighten the blade and grind it without it either snapping or crumbling, it probably only dates back to the seventies.

[Monty]

Ok, I'll bite.....

......Where was this arch?

Monty

[robhouse]

Hi Niko,

When you post a reply here on the forum, just look down underneath the text box... where it says "Additional Options" and click the button that says "Manage Attachments".

Then, in the popup window click the "Choose File" button and select an image from your computer. If you want to select more than one image just click the next "Choose File" button. Then after you have selected your images (jpg or whatever) click "Upload". After that you can just close the window and post the reply, and the image will appear in the message.

Rob H

[niko]

Hello Niko. Welcome to the boards.

I was curious regarding your comment about Aaron Kosminski being a suspect at the time of the murders. According to the best available information, he was not suspected until some time later--possibly as late as 1891.

The medical examiners were not too keen on the Coram knife as being implicated in Liz's death. Do you think that, perhaps they were mistaken?

Cheers.
LC

Hi LC, i some were read that the medical examiners or forensic said it must be a large strong knife, or somthing like that, about if the medical examiners were mistaken, what can i say, i try to do my work good, and on doing this i sometimes make mistakes, all the best.