The could be knife Thomas Coram found on October the 1st 1888

[niko]

Reason why i think the knife i posses could be connectedto the JTRcase.

Wolf,

Of course you are correct about it not being Coram's knife. I am hanging around to see what Niko might know about Kosminski's cousin.

Cheers,

Mike

Hello to everybody, how can i begin. In my trade paper "n" pen and words are not mt tools. My trade is the construction, i am a bricklayer,bricky or builder, any of those names will do. This is why i think i have a problem trying to explain what i mean to say. "here we go then" I totally comprehend that everybody disbilieve in my story,but it does not bother me,some nutter like me pops out of the blue and says his got a knfe that he thinks is connected to the Jack the ripper case. Logical to disbelive, i would do the same. But one thing i would like you all to understand is that i do believe in my story, thinking is free,as to coment is free, I have my own hypothesis on Jack the ripper, Whitechapel murders. Partly being, "1" i believe there was,is,a sort of coverup, why? don,t know "2" i believe there was a goup of people involved."3" could of involved some sort of black magic ritual or somthing, "4" i also believe that the truth always comes out sooner or later.I spoken with a few JTR experts, one i think propably the number one ripper expert in the world, "i will mention no names", told me that in my research to take note of information taken from official reports, you know, medical examiners,inquests, court hearings news papers although i usually say "don,t belive what the papers say". Here are some points of information i found that made me suspicious of the knife i found. Here are some quotes i have noted.............the knife produced on ythe last occasion was delivered to me,properly secured,by a constable,and on examination i found it to be such a knife as used in a CHANDLERS shop,and i called a slicing knife. It has blood upon it, whic has charateristics simular to the blood of human being. It has been recentlyt blunted,and its edge apparently TURNED by rubbing on a stone such as a kerbstone. It evidently was before a very sharp knife..........another quote.........a ROUND POINTED instrument,would seriuosly handicap himself, as he would be only able to use it in one particular way. I am told that slaughterers always use a SHARP POINTED instrument........another quote...........and there was evidence that an axe was used in the crime,a long with the LONG,SHARP KNIFE the ripper was known to use.............another quote...........Much importance is attached to a blood-stained knife which was found in Whitechapel-Road,as detailed at the inquest,but nothing has yet been found to through light on how it got there nearly twenty four hours after the murder was comitted. It was such a weapon as might have inflicted the wounds,but wether it really is the knife which the miscreant used cannot be ascertianed.......................another quote..............The chararcter of the kniofe used,as suggested by the medical evidence at the inquest, is simular in kind to the instument, known as a FRENCH COOKS KNIFE, or at least,is,in the surcumstances,more consistent with its use by a foreigner than an English man................another quote...... midnight on Sunday,found in Whitechapel-Road a knife about a foot long, such as used by a baker in there trade. It was discoloured with blood,a hankerchief which was bound around the handle was also bloodstianed. Mr Phillips, the police surgeon,having given his acount of the post-mortem examination, the inquiry was adjourned.....................another quote............ it has been recently BLUNTED and the EDGE TURNED,by apparently rubbing on a stone. It evidently was before that very sharp knife,which suggests that its owner,in a temper,had blunted it because it had injured him. A final mystery,what would actually motivated the killer to use a different knife on Liz Stride?.........another quote ...............This quote is about Matha Tabram,which i think is sure to be a ripper victim. The exception ws a wound,on the chest bone which appears to have been made with a stronger-bladed weapon such as a dagger or sword bayonet...................another quote.............."Doctor Phillips" a small amputating knife,or well ground butchers knife,NARROW and THIN,sharp with a blade from six to eight inches long..................another quote..............from Nichols............to Kelly were "no doubt"comitted by the same person,that a knife at least six inches long, very sharp,POINTED and aBOUT an inch in width had been used,possibly a clasp knife,butchers knife or a surgeons knife...............another quote........ .......The BLADE was about TEN INCHES LONG. Coram called P.C Drage 282 H. Asked the lad how he came to see it,he said i was just looking around,and i saw somthing white. "further on says" The knife and hankerchief produced.The boy was sober,and his manner natural.He said that made his blood ran cold,adding"we hear of such funny things nowadays". ........ When i read this report a strange feeling came all over my body, it was the first time i had read about the hankerchief being tied with a STRING,the same as the knife i found in the arch.From this point onwards it was when i seriously began to think that the knife could be connected to the JTR case........... another quote............left, the knives most closely resembles my perception of the murder weapon.They are the type of knife that a fish porter like Joe Barnett would have used routinely in his work. No more quotes. As i could not remember what a CHANDLER was, i searched on the internet and found this, Chandler. The tools that had to be used to make a candle were a wicking board,candle rod,knives and rifles, the wicking board was a piece of wood used to cut the bottom of the candles. The candle rod was a stick that many wicks were placed so that they could be dipped, knives were used to cut the animal fat,wicks and the bottom of the candles. Where most people did all this work was at their home.It would,nt matter if you were in the country side or town because they needed lighto work. Further on it mentions that they neededto have hunting skills and knowledge on removing the fat from the animal "the last bit sounds suspicious" the same way as butcher and slaughterers were at the time suspicious in my eyes a chandler would also be,all this makes me feel like starting to talk about "thieves candles" and all that,but wi,ll leave that aside. This is another of my hypothesis, i think i,m correct on the following. Imagine you have a long bladed knife,starting from a sharp point to the blade widening to two inches at the handle end. You penetrate the knife all the way into living flesh,all the way in to the handle, its obviuos that the slit ( hole ) is going to be two inches wide, "logical". But what happens when you pull the blade out of the flesh? I think that the flesh, tissues,muscles inclueded will CONTRACT and the slit on the flesh will no longer be two iches wide,but would have reduced to less than an inch " i could be wrong and just Talking a load of BULL" . I say this i supose the medical examiners took this into consideration because if not,that explians their hypothesis on the murder weapon being of only one inch wide,sharp long bladed knife,....sorry...... another quote...........coroner.The knife produced on the last accasion was not SHARP POINTED,was it? No,it was ROUNDED at the TIP,which was about an inch across,the blade was WIDER at the base ( to me, only a pointed instrument has a tip). Its like before " the tip of the point was rounded BLA,BLA,BLA, don,t understand how a non pointed rounded end knife has a POINT and a TIP" read the last quote again, this quote seems very impotant for me in the dicription of the knife Thomas Coram found. OK lets change the subject, where i live there are many wild animals one being,the wild boar,in the winter moths,in the hunting season i atend wild boar hunts.I know more than twenty wild boar hunters and i can garantee you,not one would dream of using a round ended knife like the ones mentoined in the JTR case,or like the ones on exhibiton in some musems, for hunting, niether for killing the animal,skining the animal or quartering,cutting the meat of the animal. On ocasion a hunting friend saw the knife i have,and suggested to take it along to the boar hunts, that it would be useful.I told him the story about the knife,"i can still hear him laughing yet" he thinks like many of my Basque friends, that im mad and the whole stoy is bullshite.No problem.I mentioned the hunting bit because it gives me reason to believe Jack the ripper was a silent predator,a sort of a vicous hunter and of course a murderer.Thats why it greatly stranges me that he would choose a round ended knife of a mere one inch width.Iwould think tha a long,thin,one inch wide, could snap whilst using and on being forced. I would think the murderer would fill more confident in his task,on using a hunting knife,dagger,bayonet, slaughterers knife,french cooks knife,butchers knife,chandlers knife,the one he would use to remove the large bits of fat from the animal, or a long,pointed,strong,thin,wide,sharp knife, for example..... like ther one i have,ja ja ja only jokeing. If the knife i have is Corams original knife and there is a sort of cover-up in all this with JTR, i am sure that the knfe will be proofed a fake. Well i think its time to stop writing,because the stem coming out of my ears is becoming thicker, i repeat i understand in your disbilieve in my story,and that many of you are thinking that im a mad idiot,no problem,"because on this side of the computer i feel like a right pratt" but you know what the problem is,that my belief in my stoy is geater than my ego.One last thing, i would like to make an understandable discription of the blade of the knife when i found it,the cutting edge was completly blunt, as if the cutting edge had been filed flat with a file,IMPORTANT the TIP of the POINT was rounded off,as if it had been chipped off whilst striking something like hard bone or a cobbled pavement.This is another IMPORTANT detail the shape ( form ) was that of s spanking new knife,as if it had never been used (until silly me grinded the blade down a bit with an electric grinding stone) thats all folk,and thankyou for reading. Im dreading the part of the possible conection between the arch were i found the evil looking knife and Aaron Kozminski,s cousin, all the best Agur.

[niko]

I can't think of a better place to start, uncovering an old knife there. Thanks for sharing. It's good to have you, an East Ender with us, and I wish you well studying the old murders.

Roy

Thanks for your welome, i have studied the basic facts regarding the murders, but i think you,ll understand that what im studying at present is every thing surounding the knifes, in the JTR case, to be exactly all the "facts" surounding the knifes.All right then mate, all the best.

[niko]

repl to Arhaic

Hi Niko.

Welcome to Casebook, and thanks for posting the photo.

That certainly is a large knife; the wide blade is almost of the meat-cleaver type.

Though we don't know what kind of blade the Ripper used, a double-edged Liston-type surgical knife is a good possibility. They have extremely sharp straight blades that often taper at the end.

There's probably no way after all these years to tie your knife to any particular individual, let alone to Jack the Ripper,
but there's always at least the possibility that your knife was used in some kind of crime and that's why it was buried.

Are there any marks (symbols) or signatures anywhere on your knife? More modern blades have maker's marks and also might be stamped "stainless steel". Older blades often have marks too but they will be different.

If you want to find out more about your knife, such as what era it might be from and what its original use was, you could take a number of good photos and then check with some antiques dealers who specialize in knives. You can also google "antique knife collectors" and some helpful info should pop up.
(I wouldn't suggest carrying a blade that size around with you when you make your initial inquiries. )

Good luck,
Archaic

Hi, and thanks for the luck, no markings what so ever, some one who i belive to know of knifes told me it could be from a 100 years old to 200 years old, and that he thinks its a fishmongers knife, also that it is of high quality craftsmanship for the oldness of the knife. Have tried "antique knife collectors" on google but with no luck yet.Ja ja ja do you think i,m mad, walking around with a twevle inch blade in mi bin (pocket) have no fear the knifes well stashed away (in safe keeping). I have a question to ask, all this about computers and forums is all new to me, i have six pages of writing to post on the forum, am i permited? will it all fit in one reply? Tank you and all the best. Niko.

[The Good Michael]

Wolf,

Of course you are correct about it not being Coram's knife. I am hanging around to see what Niko might know about Kosminski's cousin.

Cheers,

Mike

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Whatever the origin of the knife it’s not the one found by Thomas Coram. Coram’s knife was described in some detail as:

“It was a knife such as would be used by a baker in his trade, it being flat at the top instead of pointed, as a butcher's knife would be. The blade, which was discoloured with something resembling blood, was quite a foot long and an inch broad, whilst the black handle was six inches in length, and strongly riveted in three places.”
The Daily Telegraph, 4 October, 1888.

As well, both Dr. Phillips and Dr. Blackwell thought the Coram knife unlikely to have been used in the murder of Stride. In the end this is just an old knife with no apparent connection to the Whitechapel murders.

Wolf.

[niko]

Niko,

In the photo as the blade gets closer to the hilt, the edge looks a little bit rounded rather than in a straight line. That may be an illusion due to the coloring and the lighting of the photo. Is the blade slightly rounded at the rear edge?

Mike

Hi Mick, good question, ill explain the best i can, its not an illusion,its curved, but thats my fault, i was no expert with the grinding stone, that when shapening the blade took a chunk out of the cutting edge of the blade, i then tried to remerdy the problem, the only way by grinding down more the blade, causing that curve. The fact is the blade was intact not worn down like it is now, the blade looked spanking new in shape and the blade looked blunt, stangely enough. The blade is 1cm shorter and 1cm less in width but thats thanks to me. My life, telling the truth... all the best.

[niko]

Hey that my knife!

Just kidding. But it does look very similar to a kitchen knife that i own in a set-and its called a chopper-used mainly for chopping vegetables.

Hi Abby, but i bet you did not unbury your knife in an East End railway arch, nor was the blade bent or had a cloth tied with a string, I have reasons to belive it could be a fishmongers knife,youve gave me an idea though,may be if i would of looked more i could of found the rest of the set,ja ja ja, just kidding, all the best mate.

[Abby Normal]

HI, the arch is in what before was called lower Chapman Street, five minutes walkung distance from the Berner club on BernerStreet.

Hey that my knife!

Just kidding. But it does look very similar to a kitchen knife that i own in a set-and its called a chopper-used mainly for chopping vegetables.

[The Good Michael]

Niko,

In the photo as the blade gets closer to the hilt, the edge looks a little bit rounded rather than in a straight line. That may be an illusion due to the coloring and the lighting of the photo. Is the blade slightly rounded at the rear edge?

Mike

[niko]

the hilt

The hilt of the knife looks definitely 19th century to me, but it is perhaps Persian or Indian. The blade is more of some kind of entrenchment tool to me, and I wonder if the original owner assembled the pieces in a way that suited him. This should be brought to a collector for his opinions

Mike

Hi Mike, thanks for your interst, i am positve the knife is hand made, and of great quality, it has no makers markings what so ever. I belive when you say the HILT of the knife you mean the form in which the handle ends, another member of the forum has mentioned this before. After not searching long on the internet i found a late 1800 butchers knife with the HILT the same as the knife i have. I repeat i think my knife is a hand crafted and of great quality, to view simular knife, search google on ANTIQUE HAND FORGED BUTCHER KNIFE to view, i think this is enough proof, showing that this type of handle exsisted at the time of the Whitechapel murders, all the best.

[The Good Michael]

The hilt of the knife looks definitely 19th century to me, but it is perhaps Persian or Indian. The blade is more of some kind of entrenchment tool to me, and I wonder if the original owner assembled the pieces in a way that suited him. This should be brought to a collector for his opinions

Mike

[The Good Michael]

Sorry Chris

[Chris]

Probably best not to put ideas into people's heads.

[The Good Michael]

I can't help but imagine a short story about someone finding the Ripper's knife and picking up where he left off, ala EC Comics, Robert Bloch, and Rod Serling

Mike

[Errata]

What im trying to say is that i think the knife was burried, protected by GREASE sorry for insisting, one thing i canot tell you is how long its been burried, all the best..

All I was saying was how intact weapons are usually found. Exceptions are everywhere, but with a claim such as yours it is only natural that someone would wonder how it survived for so long in the soil. My post was merely an explanation of how it usually works. It's rather fascinating how natural conditions can collide to either preserve or destroy our history.

My suggestion would be to check the history of the knife. Like anything else, styles and designs of knives come and go. Look at the general silhouette of the knife and try to find the earliest example of it. The handle for example is a design that I personally have never seen before WWII. But if you can find a knife with a handle like that from the 19th century, then that tells you it could be that old. Try to find makers marks or writing. It should be at the base of the blade near the handle, or in some cases on the butt of the handle. Certain knife makers have been around for centuries. Others are fairly new. Good luck!