The Secret Special Branch Ledgers

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Stewart Evans is not a man given to talking bollocks.

He wrote in 2011—

"Whilst making tentative enquiries about the ledgers a few years ago we were warned that it was a sensitive subject and was best steered clear of. I took part in a public debate about the Whitechapel murders and I mentioned the Special Branch material. After the talk I was approached by someone who informed me that the material would never be released and if it appeared that it was going to be accessed it would be destroyed."

Interesting that someone so apparently well informed about the subject should have attended Stewart's talk.

If this doesn't tell you all you need to know about the WM, I don't know what will.

And yet collectively we playfully cling to the belief that a man known initially as Leather Apron and subsequently as Jack the Ripper stalked the East End bumping off unfortunates, and, further, based on the desultory evidence bequeathed to us by policemen who obviously knew better, that it's possible to put a name to him.

Stay safe, everybody.

Simon

[c.d.]

Hello Simon,

While it is certainly strange and somewhat disconcerting that someone as described above attended Stewart's talk I don't see a smoking gun here. Agencies like Special Branch are steeped in secrecy and have a culture of paranoia and distrust. They simply don't want people poking around in their files for any reason. Besides, there could be references to non-Ripper materials as well that they would rather not be leaked to the general public.

I know in the legal profession that attorneys coach their clients who are going to be deposed to provide the bare minimum response to even the most innocuous and harmless question and to slam the door in opposing counsel's face at every opportunity.

Someone can't get in your home if you don't allow them a foot in the door.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi All,

Stewart Evans is not a man given to talking bollocks.

He wrote in 2011—

"Whilst making tentative enquiries about the ledgers a few years ago we were warned that it was a sensitive subject and was best steered clear of. I took part in a public debate about the Whitechapel murders and I mentioned the Special Branch material. After the talk I was approached by someone who informed me that the material would never be released and if it appeared that it was going to be accessed it would be destroyed."

Interesting that someone so apparently well informed about the subject should have attended Stewart's talk.

If this doesn't tell you all you need to know about the WM, I don't know what will.

And yet collectively we playfully cling to the belief that a man known initially as Leather Apron and subsequently as Jack the Ripper stalked the East End bumping off unfortunates, and, further, based on the desultory evidence bequeathed to us by policemen who obviously knew better, that it's possible to put a name to him.

Stay safe, everybody.

Simon

This is what people aren't grasping Simon, these cases are indeed some kind of "hot potato". This fantasy madman drooling and slicing is Im sure a result of a level of carnage rarely seen done by one human upon another. Must be a monster. As some others recognize, we are all capable of monstrosities and the expression of violence isn't limited to those who are out of control.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Michael,

Fantasy Madman is an apt description.

Stay safe.

Simon

[DJA]

[etenguy]

Edited out - incorrect thread.

[Michael W Richards]

I think that the basic premise here should be that there were indeed lots of files containing information about the murders considered to be part of Jack the Rippers list...at one time. If there was also sensitive information about other people or issues....like any potential link of the Jack fellow to someone who the sceret parts of the government was working with despite their anti monarch, anti policy, and perhaps demonstrated terrorist positions.

Like for example if a file contained information that someone though that Millen was involved in the murders, or that someone involved with the Balfour assassination plot was mentioned.

Anyone who believes that espionage, national security or national defense issues would just be set aside by all the men from those departments who were assigned, for some reason, to investigate murders of street women, they are deluding themselves. Just take Andersons trip just as he was assigned to the Ripper cases. He was gone a month,...and had to be called back after Kates murder...from Paris, not Switzerland. Self rule Irish factions, terrorists of all types gravitated to Paris during those years. It was staging/planning point.

[Sunny Delight]

Hello Simon,

While it is certainly strange and somewhat disconcerting that someone as described above attended Stewart's talk I don't see a smoking gun here. Agencies like Special Branch are steeped in secrecy and have a culture of paranoia and distrust. They simply don't want people poking around in their files for any reason. Besides, there could be references to non-Ripper materials as well that they would rather not be leaked to the general public.

I know in the legal profession that attorneys coach their clients who are going to be deposed to provide the bare minimum response to even the most innocuous and harmless question and to slam the door in opposing counsel's face at every opportunity.

Someone can't get in your home if you don't allow them a foot in the door.

c.d.

Special Branch files would be totally useless in regards the Ripper. It would be like looking at files of the Birmingham Six and expecting to see Peter Sutcliffes name in there. Special Branch only real concern was defeating the Irish-Americans who made up most of the Clan na Gael operatives in London at that time. The use of spies and agent provocateurs was key to that. Just like the Troubles in Northern Ireland Special Branch will never allow members of the public to see the files. Indeed some files are closed until 2090- a full 120 years from the events. And that is just an initial length of time. I think it's fairly certain the local Police interviewed the Ripper. It is very likely his name was somewhere amongst the lists complied by Police. It is very likely he was able to talk himself out of any corner he encountered himself in. The Special Branch files would tell us nothing about a lone predator who targeted vulnerable women in one of the most notorious slums in England.

[Trevor Marriott]

Special Branch files would be totally useless in regards the Ripper. It would be like looking at files of the Birmingham Six and expecting to see Peter Sutcliffes name in there. Special Branch only real concern was defeating the Irish-Americans who made up most of the Clan na Gael operatives in London at that time. The use of spies and agent provocateurs was key to that. Just like the Troubles in Northern Ireland Special Branch will never allow members of the public to see the files. Indeed some files are closed until 2090- a full 120 years from the events. And that is just an initial length of time. I think it's fairly certain the local Police interviewed the Ripper. It is very likely his name was somewhere amongst the lists complied by Police. It is very likely he was able to talk himself out of any corner he encountered himself in. The Special Branch files would tell us nothing about a lone predator who targeted vulnerable women in one of the most notorious slums in England.

You are wrong there are snippets of information on the ripper case within the files and quotes from police and government officials also

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sunny Delight]

You are wrong there are snippets of information on the ripper case within the files and quotes from police and government officials also

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I would imagine that Special Branch would have had low grade, low level informants in the Whitechapel area amongst the immigrant Irish population. Not much would have come from them but maybe the odd useful snippet in regards possible Fenian sympathisers. They may have been quizzed on the Ripper case, had they overheard anything in a bar, did they know of any suspicious or weird characters. They probably named some people who would have been known to them. Is it possible one of those names would have been the Ripper? It's possible I guess. But very unlikely. In my own opinion the Ripper was a local man who had grown up in the area and was unlikely to be an immigrant. And I am 99.9% certain that the Fenian movement who I have studied extensively was not in any way involved in the Ripper murders.

[Trevor Marriott]

I would imagine that Special Branch would have had low grade, low level informants in the Whitechapel area amongst the immigrant Irish population. Not much would have come from them but maybe the odd useful snippet in regards possible Fenian sympathisers. They may have been quizzed on the Ripper case, had they overheard anything in a bar, did they know of any suspicious or weird characters. They probably named some people who would have been known to them. Is it possible one of those names would have been the Ripper? It's possible I guess. But very unlikely. In my own opinion the Ripper was a local man who had grown up in the area and was unlikely to be an immigrant. And I am 99.9% certain that the Fenian movement who I have studied extensively was not in any way involved in the Ripper murders.

You clearly have not read the chapters in my book "Jack the Ripper-The real truth" on my quest to have them made public otherwise you would know that the police did suspect that Fenians could have been behind the murders.

There is an entry from Chief Insp Littlechild which reads “Suspect O’Brien & The Whitechapel Murders”

Other references to the Fenians appear in MEPO 18/1. The file in question is a crime record book, which contained details of internal police memos and files relating to enquiries and investigations. Some of these entries related to the Whitechapel murders although the dates of the files referred to and the entries are un-dated. One such entry read: “Whitechapel Murders suggested complicity of Irish Party.” This entry related to an original file numbered 93867.

The Special Branch or Special Irish Branch came under Monro's control when he was Assistant Commissioner (CID). There is also an entry in the register relating to him in a memorandum from the Home Secretary Henry Matthews sent in 1888 to his Private Secretary Evelyn Ruggles-Brise that read: “Stimulate the Police about the Whitechapel murders. Monro might be willing to give a hint to the CID people if necessary.” This also shows Special Branch did have some input into the murders

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sunny Delight]

You clearly have not read the chapters in my book "Jack the Ripper-The real truth" on my quest to have them made public otherwise you would know that the police did suspect that Fenians could have been behind the murders.

There is an entry from Chief Insp Littlechild which reads “Suspect O’Brien & The Whitechapel Murders”

Other references to the Fenians appear in MEPO 18/1. The file in question is a crime record book, which contained details of internal police memos and files relating to enquiries and investigations. Some of these entries related to the Whitechapel murders although the dates of the files referred to and the entries are un-dated. One such entry read: “Whitechapel Murders suggested complicity of Irish Party.” This entry related to an original file numbered 93867.

The Special Branch or Special Irish Branch came under Monro's control when he was Assistant Commissioner (CID). There is also an entry in the register relating to him in a memorandum from the Home Secretary Henry Matthews sent in 1888 to his Private Secretary Evelyn Ruggles-Brise that read: “Stimulate the Police about the Whitechapel murders. Monro might be willing to give a hint to the CID people if necessary.” This also shows Special Branch did have some input into the murders

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You obviously don't understand how Special Branch worked. They would have had informants and agents feeding them information all the time. Some of it would have been worthless. Just because there are files does not mean they are of any relevance. My guess is that they would have been a red herring. The Fenians would have had zero interest whatsoever in committing acts of this nature. As I said earlier it would be akin to blaming the Provisional IRA for the Yorkshire ripper murders. It's nonsense. This was quite obviously a lone predator, local, maybe a little strange but nothing major and someone who had a job.

[Trevor Marriott]

You obviously don't understand how Special Branch worked. They would have had informants and agents feeding them information all the time. Some of it would have been worthless. Just because there are files does not mean they are of any relevance. My guess is that they would have been a red herring. The Fenians would have had zero interest whatsoever in committing acts of this nature. As I said earlier it would be akin to blaming the Provisional IRA for the Yorkshire ripper murders. It's nonsense. This was quite obviously a lone predator, local, maybe a little strange but nothing major and someone who had a job.

Oh I know first hand how special branch worked as i was seconded to them for 6 months !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All information that is gathered whether it be from an investigation, or from information received has to be assessed and evaluated and reported on.

The Fenians were active in trying to disrupt the forces of law and order at this time as history tells us! I would suggest these murders did just that!

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Michael W Richards]

Oh I know first hand how special branch worked as i was seconded to them for 6 months !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All information that is gathered whether it be from an investigation, or from information received has to be assessed and evaluated and reported on.

The Fenians were active in trying to disrupt the forces of law and order at this time as history tells us! I would suggest these murders did just that!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

So some of my ideas in post #352 were likely spot on, nice when you get that backed up. So rare.

[Sunny Delight]

Oh I know first hand how special branch worked as i was seconded to them for 6 months !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All information that is gathered whether it be from an investigation, or from information received has to be assessed and evaluated and reported on.

The Fenians were active in trying to disrupt the forces of law and order at this time as history tells us! I would suggest these murders did just that!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The Fenian movement were attempting a form of terrorism- a new form as it were, where instead of targeting Political or Poilce representatives they attempting to frighten the populace into pressuring the Politicians for change instead. However it was based on achieving an independent Ireland. How the Jack the Ripper murders would in any way help that cause I do not know. It is fairly obvious that the Branch had informants amongst Irish immigrants within Whitechapel. Keeping an eye for those who may be sympathetic to the Fenian cause. I am sure they were tapped for info regarding Jack the Ripper. As I say have they overheard anything in a pub, seen any suspicious characters. They obviously told the Branch some names. Most likely useless. I would also say that despite the Irish Parliamentary Party and IRB(Fenians) being closely linked with the 1880 New Departure(google it) those involved in attacking England were often Clan na Gael Irish American operatives. Therefore any connection with the Irish Party as the files suggest is likely nonsense.