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The Secret Special Branch Ledgers

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  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    Youve already been given examples on how the cause might profit. Maybe step off the podium and listen to some others a bit.

    No I haven't. And I am listening but not finding anything of substance coming back. For the Fenians to have committed this crime(this is what I am taking from your posts) one must surely provide a link between the incident and Irish Independence.

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    • Hi Sunny Delight.

      I think something along the lines of the Irish dynamiters hiring women to plant bombs at various locations (for money) or other various tasks and then killing them for not wanting the women to name names, is within the realm of possibility. Many don't believe the ripper had 5 women accounted to him. Eddowes is a good example of a possibility to carry out such a task and as Michael said, she may have been a nose for the police. Mitre Square was a previous location set up to facilitate the dynamiters and also a location that housed a board member for a newly formed explosives company in 1888.

      Comment


      • Put a different spin on events.

        Hundreds of policemen were poured into the East End, told to be on the lookout for a totally fictitious Ripper who was allegedly cutting up the local sisterhood.

        What else might these policemen have been trying to prevent?
        Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
          Hi Sunny Delight.

          I think something along the lines of the Irish dynamiters hiring women to plant bombs at various locations (for money) or other various tasks and then killing them for not wanting the women to name names, is within the realm of possibility. Many don't believe the ripper had 5 women accounted to him. Eddowes is a good example of a possibility to carry out such a task and as Michael said, she may have been a nose for the police. Mitre Square was a previous location set up to facilitate the dynamiters and also a location that housed a board member for a newly formed explosives company in 1888.
          Thanks Jerry, and that "nose" bit is very interesting when looking at Kates facial cuts.
          Michael Richards

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
            Put a different spin on events.

            Hundreds of policemen were poured into the East End, told to be on the lookout for a totally fictitious Ripper who was allegedly cutting up the local sisterhood.

            What else might these policemen have been trying to prevent?
            The kind of foot patrol activity that suggests Simon does indicate that it would be much harder to move about unseen by someone. And I would think nighttime is when most of the bad men come out to play. I wonder statistically what was the drop in common street crimes from Sept to Dec.
            Michael Richards

            Comment


            • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
              Hi Sunny Delight.

              I think something along the lines of the Irish dynamiters hiring women to plant bombs at various locations (for money) or other various tasks and then killing them for not wanting the women to name names, is within the realm of possibility. Many don't believe the ripper had 5 women accounted to him. Eddowes is a good example of a possibility to carry out such a task and as Michael said, she may have been a nose for the police. Mitre Square was a previous location set up to facilitate the dynamiters and also a location that housed a board member for a newly formed explosives company in 1888.
              Hi Jerry and thanks for the post. In this 21st century it of course is quite feasible and even likely that this could happen- in regards a woman planting bombs. In the 19th century however following societal norms this was absolutely unthinkable. It would be akin to us suggesting a toddler take a suicide bomb. It was that unthinkable. Women were not sworn members of the IRB although there was a Womans Committee. Superficially the idea you suggest is not a bad one but when we consider other elements it strikes me as something without much foundation.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post

                Hi Jerry and thanks for the post. In this 21st century it of course is quite feasible and even likely that this could happen- in regards a woman planting bombs. In the 19th century however following societal norms this was absolutely unthinkable. It would be akin to us suggesting a toddler take a suicide bomb. It was that unthinkable. Women were not sworn members of the IRB although there was a Womans Committee. Superficially the idea you suggest is not a bad one but when we consider other elements it strikes me as something without much foundation.
                London Mid Surrey Times
                Saturday, March 14, 1885, London, Middlesex


                Comment


                • Originally posted by jerryd View Post

                  London Mid Surrey Times
                  Saturday, March 14, 1885, London, Middlesex


                  Thank you for this very interesting snippet. However in my opinion this does not amount to much. An unknown Irishman stopping a lady and suggesting she makes a quick buck by placing a bomb he is carrying sounds rather bizarre to me. It would not in the least bit suprise me if this was a fantasist of some sort- the kind we encounter quite a lot in the Ripper case especially. Strange men accosting women and showing off knives or acting pecularly. I would hasten to add that your first post suggested a conspiratorial type of situation where the bomber(a female) would know the names of other conspirators and could very well name them. This example- if genuinely a Fenian bomber would suggest a spur of the moment panic decision where the girl asked to take the bomb could have no idea on the names of those involved. Merely a description of appearance. Just my take on it.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                    Thanks Jerry, and that "nose" bit is very interesting when looking at Kates facial cuts.

                    Firstly you would have to prove any kind of link between Eddowes and Irish seperatists before we could even begin moving on to the mutilations carried out on the poor woman.

                    Comment


                    • Here is another interesting one. The link is to my imgur page, sorry.

                      https://i.imgur.com/sTHAx7Y.jpg

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                        Here is another interesting one. The link is to my imgur page, sorry.

                        https://i.imgur.com/sTHAx7Y.jpg
                        Yes absolutely the Womans Committee would have been used as couriers, fund raisers, first aiders, prisoner support and provided food and shelter to Republicans. They would however never have been used as active participants. That is to say they would not be permitted to carry out bombings.

                        Comment


                        • Even if we assume for the sake of argument that the Fenians sent a message by cutting Kate's throat and cutting her nose off for being a snitch who was that message intended for? Wouldn't it only have been understood by those who knew she was a snitch? Is there any evidence at all that she told anyone that she knew for sure that the Fenians were behind the murders? And then there is also the question of the mutilations. Why engage in those? With the addition of the mutilations even those who knew that she was about to snitch on the Fenians couldn't be sure if the Fenians killed her or whether she was killed by a madman running around Whitechapel killing prostitutes. This would seem to defeat the whole idea of sending a message would it not?

                          c.d.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                            Even if we assume for the sake of argument that the Fenians sent a message by cutting Kate's throat and cutting her nose off for being a snitch who was that message intended for? Wouldn't it only have been understood by those who knew she was a snitch? Is there any evidence at all that she told anyone that she knew for sure that the Fenians were behind the murders? And then there is also the question of the mutilations. Why engage in those? With the addition of the mutilations even those who knew that she was about to snitch on the Fenians couldn't be sure if the Fenians killed her or whether she was killed by a madman running around Whitechapel killing prostitutes. This would seem to defeat the whole idea of sending a message would it not?

                            c.d.
                            To follow this idea further for you, the cutting of ones nose to indicate they were spying or a snitch for the police was something anyone in that neighbor..being the East End,...would recognize. This wasn't the first "nose" punished...if indeed that's what happened to Kate. This "nose" element may well have been a factor in Strides murder too...by the radical socialists. Maybe she was mistaken for a spy.

                            The mutilations on Kate could be construed as someone attempting to suggest the same killer as Annie and Polly, diverting attention from the people really to blame and onto an unknown killer at large.

                            Anyone sees a mutilated victim at that time...this "Jack" fellow is suspected. Not Fenians silencing a snitch, nor Radical socialists mistaking someone for a snitch. Not someone who had an intimate relationship with the deceased...as is indicated in Kellys case. the more you turn all unsolved murders over to "Jack" the less likely that you will solve even one of them. Because each new addition changes the profile of the killer if you want to marry victims under one umbrella, and the real motives for the killings are perhaps not even considered.
                            Michael Richards

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                              The mutilations on Kate could be construed as someone attempting to suggest the same killer as Annie and Polly, diverting attention from the people really to blame and onto an unknown killer at large
                              Hi Michael,

                              Just in keeping with the Fenian connection, so, they silence Kate, a snitch, and cut off her nose so that people know she was targeted for that reason. Send a message to locals. But, they also disguise the killing as being in the vein of the recent murders by disemboweling her and taking bits out, just in case anyone cotton's on that they've silenced a snitch. Do these not rule each other out?
                              If the Fenians, or some such other group 'silenced' Kate but wanted to divert attention, why cut off her nose at all?

                              ​​​​​
                              I'm not going to link to it, or such....

                              Comment


                              • I don't see a need to consider marking a snitch and disguising a murder to suggest a mad killer at large as opposing objectives Al. The disguise leads authorities to look for someone they were already looking for and knew diddly squat about, someone who seems to kill at random based on opportunity. Well, if my suggestions is correct, then they likely killed Kate because she was endangering them by threatening to expose them, or him, and whatever criminal activities they(he) were(was) engaged in....(maybe a Post Office Robbery that same weekend, right around the corner from Kates murder?). Making it appear as if it could be the killer at large killing at random is misdirection, the cutting of the nose serves another purpose.

                                When I state something like this...please not all detractors, its a premise for discussion, not something Ive accepted as factual. Seems I have to defend criticisms for even making "alternative" suggestions sometimes.
                                Last edited by Michael W Richards; 07-15-2020, 01:11 PM.
                                Michael Richards

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