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  • Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post


    The Clan na Gael bombers which were financed by a shadowy American splinter group named the Triangle had no interest in Politics. That was the whole issue with the split between IRB, Clan na Gael and the Triangle. The 'New Departure' although not supported by the IRB was not opposed so their members were free to associate with the Irish Parliamentary Party who favoured Home Rule. Clan na Gaels leadership led by men like John Devoy were also pragmatic but the rank and file did not subscribe to this. Their aim was to terrorize the British public so they would see holding Ireland as too problematic and not worth the hassle. It was a really naive type of plan- the attacks and although in a way revolutionary in its thinking the Empire was never going to give in to such methods. The Ripper murders would have been an unwelcome distraction for them- taking the spotlight and headlines off them and onto the Whitechapel murderer.
    You've made a point that people should at least read Fenian Fire as part of the Ripper curriculum, what I don't get is how you see these cause driven terrorists incapable of committing gruesome murders in London that terrorized the general public and embarrassed the police. If we can just look at the murders individually instead of grouping the murders under the umbrella of a "series of Five', some kind of terrorism for one or more of these is certainly not an idea that isn't worth looking into.
    Michael Richards

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

      You've made a point that people should at least read Fenian Fire as part of the Ripper curriculum, what I don't get is how you see these cause driven terrorists incapable of committing gruesome murders in London that terrorized the general public and embarrassed the police. If we can just look at the murders individually instead of grouping the murders under the umbrella of a "series of Five', some kind of terrorism for one or more of these is certainly not an idea that isn't worth looking into.

      It shows a complete lack of understanding about the Fenian movement as a whole, it's structures and it's aims. There is no reason why killing Prostitutes in a London slum could in any way lead to an Independent Ireland. You also misunderstand the Fenian mentality. It was imperative to claim responsibility for attacks- that way the public, Police and Politicians were under no illusions that this was an attack by the Fenians and that these attacks were inextricably linked with their aim of an Independent Ireland. Claiming responsibility was key. It gave them headlines and status. Skulking around a London slum knifing prostitutes in the dead of night and not claiming responsibility was hardly going to achieve their aim was it?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post


        It shows a complete lack of understanding about the Fenian movement as a whole, it's structures and it's aims. There is no reason why killing Prostitutes in a London slum could in any way lead to an Independent Ireland. You also misunderstand the Fenian mentality. It was imperative to claim responsibility for attacks- that way the public, Police and Politicians were under no illusions that this was an attack by the Fenians and that these attacks were inextricably linked with their aim of an Independent Ireland. Claiming responsibility was key. It gave them headlines and status. Skulking around a London slum knifing prostitutes in the dead of night and not claiming responsibility was hardly going to achieve their aim was it?
        Part of the Fenians agenda was to disrupt the forces of law and order in London, they did that by the bombings they carried out, but the forces of law and order were also disrupted by the murders. Many police officers were employed on the murders who could have been more gainfully employed in catching the terrorists.

        And if Mary Kelly was really Alice Carroll in hiding there is your motive!

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

        Comment


        • Good point, Trevor. They didn't have to be directly involved in the murders to have benefited from them.

          c.d.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

            Part of the Fenians agenda was to disrupt the forces of law and order in London, they did that by the bombings they carried out, but the forces of law and order were also disrupted by the murders. Many police officers were employed on the murders who could have been more gainfully employed in catching the terrorists.

            And if Mary Kelly was really Alice Carroll in hiding there is your motive!

            www.trevormarriott.co.uk

            Lord above. If that is your line of enquiry you will never even come close to an answer in regard the Ripper murders.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post


              Lord above. If that is your line of enquiry you will never even come close to an answer in regard the Ripper murders.
              As previously stated all lines of enquiry should not be dismissed without being thoroughly investigated.

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post


                It shows a complete lack of understanding about the Fenian movement as a whole, it's structures and it's aims. There is no reason why killing Prostitutes in a London slum could in any way lead to an Independent Ireland. You also misunderstand the Fenian mentality. It was imperative to claim responsibility for attacks- that way the public, Police and Politicians were under no illusions that this was an attack by the Fenians and that these attacks were inextricably linked with their aim of an Independent Ireland. Claiming responsibility was key. It gave them headlines and status. Skulking around a London slum knifing prostitutes in the dead of night and not claiming responsibility was hardly going to achieve their aim was it?
                Ill just say that you are not the only one that familiarized themselves with what Irish Self Rule factions wanted, you are the only one however that doesn't understand how this kind of Terrorism could work for them. Tarnish the idea that the authorities protect the innocent rather that just the elite, embarrass the local police, send a message to others about what interference brings, punish a stool pidgeon, terrorism in singular acts doesn't need to be obviously serving the greater purposes, it can be intended as a means to erode confidence in the authorities and the government, to show the elitism in English society...they don't need to put their name on it. People in the know would recognize it. An example of this may have been the murder of Katherine Eddowes. She claimed to know the killer(s) and to be about to reveal them to the police. She likely had deep Irish ties going back to the Conway days. And she has cuts on her face that had been seen before on victims....the nose cut indicating a "snitch", or a "nose" for the police.
                Michael Richards

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                  Ill just say that you are not the only one that familiarized themselves with what Irish Self Rule factions wanted, you are the only one however that doesn't understand how this kind of Terrorism could work for them. Tarnish the idea that the authorities protect the innocent rather that just the elite, embarrass the local police, send a message to others about what interference brings, punish a stool pidgeon, terrorism in singular acts doesn't need to be obviously serving the greater purposes, it can be intended as a means to erode confidence in the authorities and the government, to show the elitism in English society...they don't need to put their name on it. People in the know would recognize it. An example of this may have been the murder of Katherine Eddowes. She claimed to know the killer(s) and to be about to reveal them to the police. She likely had deep Irish ties going back to the Conway days. And she has cuts on her face that had been seen before on victims....the nose cut indicating a "snitch", or a "nose" for the police.

                  'People in the Know would recognise it'. Which totally defeats the purpose of what Fenian terrorism was hoping to achieve. They wanted everyone to know the attacks they carried out. This was not some sort of game with the authorities. Their aim was to inexplicably link their actions with the British 'occupation' of Ireland. They wanted the public to be afraid- but they wanted the public to know WHY they were afraid. When they bombed or killed it was to spread public fear that would cast an eye at Ireland. To even remotely suggest the Fenians had any interest whatsoever in drunken Prostitutes in a London slum is extremely far fetched. They had far bigger fish to fry.

                  Comment


                  • I have to agree with Michael on this one (oh how it pains me to say that and I think I just saw Rod Serling in the corner smoking a cigarette). I don't think the Fenians were involved in the murders but why look a gift horse in the mouth? Why not attempt to exploit what was handed to them? Would they have been so rigid in their thinking and methods that they didn't realize that there is more than one way to skin a cat?

                    Example: a few weeks ago President Trump was walking down a ramp going slowly and clearly holding on tightly. His explanation was that the ramp was steep, wet and slippery. Immediately some of those who want him gone said see he is old and in bad health. Now did those people change the angle of the ramp without anyone knowing or put water on it? Pretty doubtful but they saw an opportunity and exploited it. Did they think people would vote Trump out of office solely because of the ramp incident? Of course not but it just put a little more fuel on the fire.

                    So I doubt that the Fenians said hey let's give the whole bombing thing a rest and put all of out efforts into exploiting the Ripper murders but why does it have to be either/or?

                    c.d.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                      I have to agree with Michael on this one (oh how it pains me to say that and I think I just saw Rod Serling in the corner smoking a cigarette). I don't think the Fenians were involved in the murders but why look a gift horse in the mouth? Why not attempt to exploit what was handed to them? Would they have been so rigid in their thinking and methods that they didn't realize that there is more than one way to skin a cat?

                      Example: a few weeks ago President Trump was walking down a ramp going slowly and clearly holding on tightly. His explanation was that the ramp was steep, wet and slippery. Immediately some of those who want him gone said see he is old and in bad health. Now did those people change the angle of the ramp without anyone knowing or put water on it? Pretty doubtful but they saw an opportunity and exploited it. Did they think people would vote Trump out of office solely because of the ramp incident? Of course not but it just put a little more fuel on the fire.

                      So I doubt that the Fenians said hey let's give the whole bombing thing a rest and put all of out efforts into exploiting the Ripper murders but why does it have to be either/or?

                      c.d.
                      Very simply they had nothing to gain from 'taking advantage' of the Ripper murders. Politically speaking the East End of London was worthless. There was of course Bethnal Green North East with a Liberal Labour MP but overall the East End was of no use to the Fenians. Now if these crimes were happening in Ireland then yes it would make sense to paint the authorities as incapable and painting the British as foolhardy as they were outsmarted time and again. But these crimes took place in London- try to prove the link between the Ripper murders and the Political benefit for the Fenians?

                      Comment


                      • Hello Sunny,

                        I didn't say that the benefit was necessarily political. I also never suggested that the Fenians would simply abandon the methods that they had relied upon in the past and put all of their eggs in the Ripper basket. All they had to do was bribe an editor or two to play up the murders. More pressure is put on the police to solve them. Both the Fenians and the Ripper murders were being investigated. But as Trevor pointed out there were a limited number of individuals doing the investigations. If Scotland Yard felt a need to take one individual off of the Fenian investigation and assign him to looking into the Ripper murders that would be a benefit to the Fenians would it not?

                        c.d.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post

                          Very simply they had nothing to gain from 'taking advantage' of the Ripper murders. Politically speaking the East End of London was worthless. There was of course Bethnal Green North East with a Liberal Labour MP but overall the East End was of no use to the Fenians. Now if these crimes were happening in Ireland then yes it would make sense to paint the authorities as incapable and painting the British as foolhardy as they were outsmarted time and again. But these crimes took place in London- try to prove the link between the Ripper murders and the Political benefit for the Fenians?
                          Just being Irish shouldn't make you so defensive you become blind to the general realities of political ideologies encased in acts of Terror.
                          Michael Richards

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                            Hello Sunny,

                            I didn't say that the benefit was necessarily political. I also never suggested that the Fenians would simply abandon the methods that they had relied upon in the past and put all of their eggs in the Ripper basket. All they had to do was bribe an editor or two to play up the murders. More pressure is put on the police to solve them. Both the Fenians and the Ripper murders were being investigated. But as Trevor pointed out there were a limited number of individuals doing the investigations. If Scotland Yard felt a need to take one individual off of the Fenian investigation and assign him to looking into the Ripper murders that would be a benefit to the Fenians would it not?

                            c.d.
                            But you are assigning this knowledge to the Fenians through hindsight. How could they have known the furore the murders would cause? For instance it was only after the Double Event that things really got to a stage of complete hysteria. I will say that of course anything that redirected the Police would have been welcomed by the Fenians- not at the expense of stealing their headlines though.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                              Just being Irish shouldn't make you so defensive you become blind to the general realities of political ideologies encased in acts of Terror.
                              The Fenians used Terrorism for Politcal gain so.....

                              Try to prove the link between the Ripper murders and the Political benefit for the Fenians?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post

                                The Fenians used Terrorism for Politcal gain so.....

                                Try to prove the link between the Ripper murders and the Political benefit for the Fenians?
                                Youve already been given examples on how the cause might profit. Maybe step off the podium and listen to some others a bit.
                                Michael Richards

                                Comment

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