The masonic annulment of the marriage, triagonal perfection and the killer.

[Lewis C]

Unless..........someone is prepared to take a stab and ID both. Come on Herlock Sholmes, you stated in a previous post that there is a massive difference between the two and it's obvious. If its obvious then take a stab.
Abby Normal Merry xmas to you too and thankyou. p.s you don't fancy taking a stab at which of these two are either bobby's helmets or deer stalkers do you?
I can't get anyone to have a go.

Hi Rex,

Would you say that it's easy to tell the difference between a person who has a moustache and one who doesn't? Now suppose I were to put up 2 silhouettes ask ask which has a moustache and which one doesn't?

Also, you say that the deer stalker hat keeps appearing in witness statements, but I only know of 2 such witnesses: Elizabeth Long and PC Smith. Are there any others?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Unless..........someone is prepared to take a stab and ID both. Come on Herlock Sholmes, you stated in a previous post that there is a massive difference between the two and it's obvious. If its obvious then take a stab.
Abby Normal Merry xmas to you too and thankyou. p.s you don't fancy taking a stab at which of these two are either bobby's helmets or deer stalkers do you?
I can't get anyone to have a go.

Hi Rex,

Your silhouettes - No, absolutely no way can I tell which is which. It's literally impossible. Either could be a PC, a man in a deerstalker hat, an exceptionally tall jockey or a nun. So I totally agree, it's impossible to tell the difference between two black images on a black background.

However. If that level of blackness accurately depicts the street situation we can throw all witness testimony out the window for Berner St, Mitre Square and Dorset St. Leon Goldstein's shiny bag? Too dark to tell. Man with a package? Too dark to tell. A red flower? Might as well have been police badge, because in that light...

Salt and pepper jacket? Too dark to tell. Appearance of a sailor, an Astrakhan coat, blotchy faces, droopy eyes, shabby gentiles and foreign looking strangers, carroty moustaches and quart cans, all scrapped for shadows.

Yes, it was dark, darker than we're used to today. Yes, one style of hat could be mistaken for another, and yes, at a push a deerstalker could be mistaken for a PC's helmet but only in such painfully specific circumstances as to make any ID attempt meaningless. A PC is distinguished by more than the profile of his hat.

​​​​So what of all the witness statements that don't mention a deerstalker hat? They outnumber the ones that do. Do we ignore them because of very few mentions of a deerstalker, one of which changed in the press report (of course it did, those pesky Mason's got to the press!)?

What of Varden St? I genuinely don't know anything about those buildings, what is the Masonic connection?

[JeffHamm]

...

Now I accept that different individuals using online measuring tools may differ by a yard or so , but not by 50 or 75 yards.
...

I did a quick measurement using the OS 25 inch map, and got 945 yards as the straight line distance between the Mitre Square and Berner Street body locations. Given the exact placement of the markers will vary between people (and even when the same person measures the same distances multiple times), I would suggest that the difference between my 945 and your approx 950 is simply measurement variation, so I can confirm I've replicated your measurement. It is definitely not 1000 yards between them.

- Jeff

[erobitha]

33 Varden street preserved until this day along with nine ajoining houses circa 1812 to 1814. Now known as 33 Turner street due to the rebuilding of much of Whitechapel. The building was renovated in 2010 by the Spitalfields trust.
Built in 1814 and rented twelve months before the murders began, this was ground zero for the murders. One of only a few buildings to survive the war and kept intact by masonic influence until its renovation in 2010. Yes they used their influence to keep the decree alive.

The Archer family lived there in the 1881 and 1891 census. Also, 76 year-old widow Thomas Sleggs was living there in 1891.

Your "rented twelve months before the murders began" theory is not looking too great, either.

[Rex mundi]

The Archer family lived there in the 1881 and 1891 census. Also, 76 year-old widow Thomas Sleggs was living there in 1891.

Your "rented twelve months before the murders began" theory is not looking too great, either.

You've got that wrong. You're completely in the wrong street.

[Rex mundi]

Hi Rex,

Your silhouettes - No, absolutely no way can I tell which is which. It's literally impossible. Either could be a PC, a man in a deerstalker hat, an exceptionally tall jockey or a nun. So I totally agree, it's impossible to tell the difference between two black images on a black background.

However. If that level of blackness accurately depicts the street situation we can throw all witness testimony out the window for Berner St, Mitre Square and Dorset St. Leon Goldstein's shiny bag? Too dark to tell. Man with a package? Too dark to tell. A red flower? Might as well have been police badge, because in that light...

Salt and pepper jacket? Too dark to tell. Appearance of a sailor, an Astrakhan coat, blotchy faces, droopy eyes, shabby gentiles and foreign looking strangers, carroty moustaches and quart cans, all scrapped for shadows.

Yes, it was dark, darker than we're used to today. Yes, one style of hat could be mistaken for another, and yes, at a push a deerstalker could be mistaken for a PC's helmet but only in such painfully specific circumstances as to make any ID attempt meaningless. A PC is distinguished by more than the profile of his hat.

ââââSo what of all the witness statements that don't mention a deerstalker hat? They outnumber the ones that do. Do we ignore them because of very few mentions of a deerstalker, one of which changed in the press report (of course it did, those pesky Mason's got to the press!)?

What of Varden St? I genuinely don't know anything about those buildings, what is the Masonic connection?

So it would be fair to say that those witness statements which started this deer stalker nonsense could have actually seen a bobby.
I'm glad someone has seen sense.
For the record, this is the one on the right. For those of you who thought it was a deer stalker, I'm not going to make fun of you or gloat. It is just a shining example of how easy it is to mistake one thing for another in bad light.

[Rex mundi]

I did a quick measurement using the OS 25 inch map, and got 945 yards as the straight line distance between the Mitre Square and Berner Street body locations. Given the exact placement of the markers will vary between people (and even when the same person measures the same distances multiple times), I would suggest that the difference between my 945 and your approx 950 is simply measurement variation, so I can confirm I've replicated your measurement. It is definitely not 1000 yards between them.

- Jeff

And what did you get between Bucks row and 29 Hanbury street? For the record.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I think you may be dismissing this prematurely, Herlock!

Think about those two apparently extraneous "A"s combined with that address.

AA + Varden Street=

A.A.R.D.V.A....

Now, my theory would appear to fall down at this point, however one has to remember that aardvarks (particularly psychotic masonic ones) are notoriously poor at spelling.

They have extremely short attention spans and lose interest quickly.

No one gave any credence to my aardvark theory Ms D. Thanks to your spot I might still have the last laugh.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

No one gave any credence to my aardvark theory Ms D. Thanks to your spot I might still have the last laugh.

AAA Aardvark: Not the best theory but the first in the book!

[erobitha]

You've got that wrong. You're completely in the wrong street.

I have census records for that exact house. What do you have? Oh nothing, that's right.

Turner Street and Varden Street are both still there.

[Ms Diddles]

No one gave any credence to my aardvark theory Ms D. Thanks to your spot I might still have the last laugh.

Well, post a map and plot a chart showing the relationship between the aardvark enclosure at London Zoo in 1888, Varder St and any of the murder sites to form some oblique masonic symbol (whichever site is the best fit!) and I'd say you're home and dry.

Nice work!

[Elamarna]

I did a quick measurement using the OS 25 inch map, and got 945 yards as the straight line distance between the Mitre Square and Berner Street body locations. Given the exact placement of the markers will vary between people (and even when the same person measures the same distances multiple times), I would suggest that the difference between my 945 and your approx 950 is simply measurement variation, so I can confirm I've replicated your measurement. It is definitely not 1000 yards between them.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff thanks for that, like normal I took a series of measurements with slightly varing points, for Berner Street, from the pavement, where the attack by BS man started to back inside the gateway where the body was found. I used the Foster sketch to place Eddowes, but of course that might vary slight on individual measurement.
The map used was the OS 1:1056 1893-1895.
The range was 944-951 yards

With the measurement of 925 - 926 for Bucks Row to 29 Hanbury St, I went from the gateway of Brown's Yard, to the Front door of 29 and it varied 925-926 yards

I remeasured to the spot the body was found, between the steps and the fence and got 926.66 yards

Have a great new year btw


Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

I find it hard to swallow that the ripper would continually wear a deer stalker when it had been printed in the newspapers that he was doing so.
That would be an invitation to disaster for him personally and it's not in the interest of either serial killers or otherwise to do so.
The fact that witnesses continued to insist on a deer stalker even after the newspaper reports must put doubt in people's minds. If you were all coppers then you'd be asking the same questions and you'd soon be discounting deer stalker hats.
I have no alternative but to conclude these women were either led away by a bobby or someone pretending to be a bobby.

Elizabeth Long didn’t mention seeing the man that she said that she’d seen with Chapman wearing a deerstalker. Edit, she did in The Times version….i just read it after seeing Lewis’ post.

Israel Schwartz didn’t mention a deerstalker for BS man or Pipeman.

Best and Gardner who reckoned that they saw Stride enter a pub with a man just a couple of hours before her body was discovered described him as wearing a Billycock Hat (a bowler)

James Brown, who said that he saw Stride 15 minutes before her body was discovered, didn’t mention a hat.

William Marshall, who said that he’d seen Stride with a man at around 11.45, described the man’s hat as a peaked cap like one that a sailor would wear. O not a deerstalker.

PC Smith did say that the man that he saw was wearing a deerstalker.

Joseph Lawende didn’t mention a deerstalker.

George Hutchinson made no mention of a deerstalker.

….so of the main witnesses we get two out of eight mentioning a deerstalker.


The Eddowes case is the smoking gun for me in that respect. She was in the custody of the police, never identified by anyone after leaving the station at 1am. The ID from the Imperial club witnesses is inconclusive IMO and there is no guarantee it was Eddowes.

I’ve said previously that it’s not impossible that the two seen by Lawende and co might not have been Eddowes and her killer but the odds are that they were. You can’t just wish this away because it’s inconvenient to your theory. The likelihood has to be that this was them.

So, the police had custody then she was dead, that's all there is in my locker and that is enough.

Sorry Rex but if that’s the kind of ‘evidence’ that you find persuasive then your locker is entirely empty. If a woman left a fish and chip shop and and hour later she was found dead, would you assume that someone from the fish and chip shop was responsible? I assume that you wouldn’t? So why are you assuming this of the police.

No one knew where she was going after she left John Kelly. No one knew that she was going to get roaring drunk. No one knew that she was going to get arrested. No one knew when she was going to be sober enough to get released. No one knew where she intended to go on release.

If you’re not accusing an officer in the station, how would anyone not in the station have known that she was being released? No radios in those days. Do you think that the killer simply stood outside the station for hours on the off-chance of her being released? And all of this because her surname began with E. Come on Rex. You surely cant really believe any of this?

No Victorian police force is ever going to point the finger at itself and incriminate itself in murder.
No one can truly tell the difference from a police helmet to a deer stalker at night in poorly lit situations, I think I've proved that today.

You’ve proved that you’re clutching at straws. I’ve posted links to actual photographs not computer animations. I’ve seen dozens of actual photographs of Victorian Police officers helmets and deerstalker hats (I own a deerstalker by the way) and they simply cannot be mistaken. Your attempt to portray the two as if they were in the Black Hole of Calcutta won’t work I’m afraid. I absolutely guarantee that this won’t convince anyone.

[Herlock Sholmes]

You've got that wrong. You're completely in the wrong street.

Then all that you need to do Rex is to provide the evidence of a link between the house and Freemasonry. You can’t just make a claim without backing it up and expect people on here just to accept it. That’s not how it works. We deal in evidence. We provide sources.

You won’t show that picture in anything other than silhouette - so what are you hiding?

You won’t name those ‘criminologists’ who supposedly confirmed your measurements.

You won’t provide any evidence of a link between Varden Street and Freemasonry.

You won’t respond to the point about Gull being a 71 multiple stroke victim who wasn’t even fit enough to continue his work as a doctor.

Saying “I think x happened and it happened for y reason,” doesn’t come close to making any kind of case.

[Herlock Sholmes]

AAA Aardvark: Not the best theory but the first in the book!

I’m still working on it Al. Wait until I introduce the Lighthouse Keeper and the Yak Farmer.