The masonic annulment of the marriage, triagonal perfection and the killer.

[Herlock Sholmes]

One other point, in the early posts Rex Mundi said that Nichols and Chapman were abducted and killed in the house he mentioned.
If such occurred. How could Long possible see Chapman outside 29 Hanbury St.
She's found less than 45 minutes later( around 30 if we accept her time was closer the half past, than quarter past).

The idea, that she would be abducted from outside 29, taken some distance away, killed, mutilated, then returned, one assumes by cart in that window is not only implausible in the extreme, it's totally illogical.
Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter.

Steve

On one hand he says that the killer would have been taking insane risks killing in Mitre Square because of the ‘police presence’ (which was no more than any other area) but it’s not deemed risky to be seen carrying bodies around in the street.

The Freemason/Sickert/Knight/Gull/PAV based theory has been conclusively shown to have been nonsense but it’s a brilliant story and this is why it occasionally re-surfaces (especially these days with the internet awash with conspiracy theories) As I’ve always said, it’s the theory that I wish was true. But it’s not.

And I’ll say it again…..I think that this is my fourth time of asking but Rex still hasn’t provided a shred of evidence of a connection between Varden Street and Freemasonry (or the murders) So it looks like it’s been plucked out of thin air because it begins with the letter ‘v’ and is convenient for an anagram. Not a great basis for a theory.

[Elamarna]

Hi Lewis,

Yes, Richardson said that it was just getting light 45 minutes prior to her sighting. Plus she passed right next to them. If it was so dark that people couldn’t distinguish a policeman’s helmet the streets would have been full of people wandering around lost. I suspect that Rex has given up?

One other point, in the early posts Rex Mundi said that Nichols and Chapman were abducted and killed in the house he mentioned.
If such occurred. How could Long possible see Chapman outside 29 Hanbury St.
She's found less than 45 minutes later( around 30 if we accept her time was closer the half past, than quarter past).

The idea, that she would be abducted from outside 29, taken some distance away, killed, mutilated, then returned, one assumes by cart in that window is not only implausible in the extreme, it's totally illogical.
Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter.

Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

And this:

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/s...?tab=biography

Hi George,

I hope that we can’t be blamed for providing ammunition for a new Freemason theory? Perhaps John Netley was on holiday at the time of the murders and you-know-who was asked to step in?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I'll also note that one of those 2 witnesses, Elizabeth Long, saw what she did when it was after dawn, so what she saw wouldn't have looked even remotely like silhouettes.

Hi Lewis,

Yes, Richardson said that it was just getting light 45 minutes prior to her sighting. Plus she passed right next to them. If it was so dark that people couldn’t distinguish a policeman’s helmet the streets would have been full of people wandering around lost. I suspect that Rex has given up?

[Lewis C]

Elizabeth Long didn’t mention seeing the man that she said that she’d seen with Chapman wearing a deerstalker. Edit, she did in The Times version….i just read it after seeing Lewis’ post.

Israel Schwartz didn’t mention a deerstalker for BS man or Pipeman.

Best and Gardner who reckoned that they saw Stride enter a pub with a man just a couple of hours before her body was discovered described him as wearing a Billycock Hat (a bowler)

James Brown, who said that he saw Stride 15 minutes before her body was discovered, didn’t mention a hat.

William Marshall, who said that he’d seen Stride with a man at around 11.45, described the man’s hat as a peaked cap like one that a sailor would wear. O not a deerstalker.

PC Smith did say that the man that he saw was wearing a deerstalker.

Joseph Lawende didn’t mention a deerstalker.

George Hutchinson made no mention of a deerstalker.

….so of the main witnesses we get two out of eight mentioning a deerstalker.

Hi Herlock,

I'll also note that one of those 2 witnesses, Elizabeth Long, saw what she did when it was after dawn, so what she saw wouldn't have looked even remotely like silhouettes.

[GBinOz]

How about this?

http://lechmerevolunteerlodge.org.uk/

And this:

https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/personExtended/mp02668/sir-edmund-lechmere-3rd-bt?tab=biography

[Herlock Sholmes]

How about this?

http://lechmerevolunteerlodge.org.uk/

[erobitha]

Pun intended?

It wasn't, but I'll take it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not entirely, Herlock. The Freemasons could have been inept at using a yardstick!

And if you recall, the Freemason Sir Charles Warren wrote a monograph in later years, Ancient Cubits and Our Weights and Measures. The Freemason were fascinated by ancient and obscure methods of measuring.

Not to encourage this sort of thing, but since a cubit varied from person to person--being basically the distance from one's elbow to one's fingertips--roughly half a yard---this could explain the small differences we are seeing if the Freemason were using biblical methods for their calculations.

For instances, if Prince Eddy measured the first distance and Netley the second, this could explain the small difference between 945 and 927.

Arm length!

And Jeff's numbers being slightly less than a 1,000 yards could actually help the theory, depending on where Rex Mundi is going with it.

1,000 yards is roughly .57 of a mile.

In the Jewish faith, Jews were only allowed to travel a maximum of 2,000 cubits on the Sabbath (.56 of a mile, using one standard estimate of a cubit) as this was the supposedly the distance the Ark of the Covenant traveled when crossing the Jordan River.

An Orthodox Jewish murderer, or someone implicating one, couldn't have traveled more than .56 of a mile from his bolt hole to the crime scene.

I suggest exhuming the bodies of Prince Eddy and Netley, measuring their skeletons, and trying more calculations.

Better dig up Gull, too!

Let me know when you've finished.

Ciao.

Note to Admin - someone has hacked Roger’s account.

[rjpalmer]

To a certain degree.

Pun intended?

[erobitha]

Gosh! Can I shyly ask: how are historical Freemasons identified?? Can they just be looked up somewhere??

You'll never guess who I'm wondering about...

Thanks,

Mark D.

To a certain degree. Many of the historical files, such as lodge member records, are available on Ancestry, but not all records are there. You might have to contact those charming people yourself...

https://museumfreemasonry.org.uk/research

[Mark J D]

Let's say hello to some key Freemasons around at the time...

Gosh! Can I shyly ask: how are historical Freemasons identified?? Can they just be looked up somewhere??

You'll never guess who I'm wondering about...

Thanks,

Mark D.

[rjpalmer]

So on the measurements alone the theory collapses entirely.

Not entirely, Herlock. The Freemasons could have been inept at using a yardstick!

And if you recall, the Freemason Sir Charles Warren wrote a monograph in later years, Ancient Cubits and Our Weights and Measures. The Freemason were fascinated by ancient and obscure methods of measuring.

Not to encourage this sort of thing, but since a cubit varied from person to person--being basically the distance from one's elbow to one's fingertips--roughly half a yard---this could explain the small differences we are seeing if the Freemason were using biblical methods for their calculations.

For instances, if Prince Eddy measured the first distance and Netley the second, this could explain the small difference between 945 and 927.

Arm length!

And Jeff's numbers being slightly less than a 1,000 yards could actually help the theory, depending on where Rex Mundi is going with it.

1,000 yards is roughly .57 of a mile.

In the Jewish faith, Jews were only allowed to travel a maximum of 2,000 cubits on the Sabbath (.56 of a mile, using one standard estimate of a cubit) as this was the supposedly the distance the Ark of the Covenant traveled when crossing the Jordan River.

An Orthodox Jewish murderer, or someone implicating one, couldn't have traveled more than .56 of a mile from his bolt hole to the crime scene.

I suggest exhuming the bodies of Prince Eddy and Netley, measuring their skeletons, and trying more calculations.

Better dig up Gull, too!

Let me know when you've finished.

Ciao.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So on the measurements alone the theory collapses entirely.

[JeffHamm]

And what did you get between Bucks row and 29 Hanbury street? For the record.

Hi Rex mundi,

I hadn't done that one at the time, but for the record I did it just now and got 927.3 yards. I only did a single measurement, so that's based upon a single placement of the markers. Steve, as he indicated above, has done a more proper version, by placing the markers multiple times and averaging the estimates. However, going back, I see his average estimate was 925, and my single measurement of 927.3 will be well within that measurement variation range.

Then, because I had things open, I measured the other inter-crime sequence distances (the distances between crime X and crime X+1) and got the following single measurements, in yards:

927.33 (Nichols -> Chapman)
943.67 (Chapman -> Stride)
945.00 (Stride -> Eddowes; previously measured)
643.33 (Eddowes -> Kelly)

Anyway, anyone can do their own measurements using the tools found here

I set the overlay to be the OS 25 inch one as I like the detail, but note some of the streets have been renamed.

- Jeff