Was JtR a necrophile?

[RockySullivan]

According to details given by Chief Inspector Swanson in a report dated 19 October 1888, regarding Israel Schwartz's statement.

Second man age 35 ht. 5 ft 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

This seems to fit Mr. Miller's description of John Cleary fairly close and also the man seen on Cannon Street jumping the boards near Whitehall was described age 35. The boards, if I remember correctly were 7 or 8 feet high.

While surely pipe smoking was common as can be in 1888 there are several significant references to pipes in the ripper case. clay pipe Alice, pipeman, eddowes pipes & cigarette case, the pipe in Kelly's room which was for some reason smashed and the man who was spotted on Berber stree who claimed his black leather bag was full of empty tobacco boxes. Anymore?

[RockySullivan]

For clarification, the fetus was found floating down the Thames in a pickle jar. It was a male, and doctors concluded that the fetus was Elizabeth Jackson's missing fetus. I questioned that. Jackson would have been 7 months along, the size of the fetus in the jar indicates that fetus might be significantly younger. At least a few weeks which is developmentally important. But because there is no description of that fetus other than size and sex, there's no way to know for sure. I have no idea what developmental markers it had. So the cops thought it was hers, I think there is a chance it was not. But because the evidence either way does not exist, safe route is to believe it was hers. There are thousands of ways I could be wrong, and searching for another pregnant woman going missing and trying to insert her into this case would be messy.

Are you sure? I could swear I read the doctors saying it was not her fetus and concluding it unrelated

[Errata]

I think errata first brought this to my attention in a thread on this sub forum not sure which one. The fetus in the jar was found in the thames around the same time as Jackson's pregnant torso yet doctors concluded it was not the missing baby. Explain that one? I tried doing some research but turned up Nary a mention at all. Torso may have kept the fetus as trophy or it ended up buried in some vault.

For clarification, the fetus was found floating down the Thames in a pickle jar. It was a male, and doctors concluded that the fetus was Elizabeth Jackson's missing fetus. I questioned that. Jackson would have been 7 months along, the size of the fetus in the jar indicates that fetus might be significantly younger. At least a few weeks which is developmentally important. But because there is no description of that fetus other than size and sex, there's no way to know for sure. I have no idea what developmental markers it had. So the cops thought it was hers, I think there is a chance it was not. But because the evidence either way does not exist, safe route is to believe it was hers. There are thousands of ways I could be wrong, and searching for another pregnant woman going missing and trying to insert her into this case would be messy.

[Errata]

I think errata first brought this to my attention in a thread on this sub forum not sure which one. The fetus in the jar was found in the thames around the same time as Jackson's pregnant torso yet doctors concluded it was not the missing baby. Explain that one? I tried doing some research but turned up Nary a mention at all. Torso may have kept the fetus as trophy or it ended up buried in some vault.

Errata good post. Do you think whitehall torso was left on purpose or intended to be buried? Not sure why it would have clippings if it was going to be buried. But why bury the limbs and leave torso? Again I think this was someone familiar with the vault and not someone who scoped out the place for dumping randomly.

I think there is a very weird game being played.

This whole thing reminds me of the illustration of the Higgs Boson. You invite aliens (who cannot see the color white) to a soccer match. They can't see the ball, they can't see the goalposts, all they can see are the players running around, sliding, occasionally celebrating. They see the crowd cheering and booing, and since they have no idea whats going on, because they can't see the two things that would make this make sense, they have to come up with an extremely complicated theory when if one player gets a certain distance to the isolated player an that player jumps laterally than a point is scored. But if he jumps vertically no point is scored. And the rules they come up with have to be ridiculous because how do you explain a soccer match with no ball and no goals? It's complicated, it's most likely wrong, it makes little sense.Until someone says "What if there is a ball we cannot see?"

There's a ball we cannot see here. This guy is clearly doing what he is doing on purpose, and we know that because it is easy to do otherwise. It's easy not to leave a torso lying out. It's easy to put the heads somewhere they can be found. So he doesn't have to do these things. He wants to. The question is why, and the only answer I have is that I don't have the faintest idea. I don't know what the rules are. Some things are found immediately, others a few days later, somethings months later and other never found. And it's not like all left hands are missing, which would we very weird but significant. As far as I can tell he's decorating. He thinks "You know what this wall could use to brighten things up? A human torso". Or he is directing this at someone or something, and these locations are significant to that person or thing, but to no one else. It's like he's wandering around with a cart tosses pieces off when it amuses him to do so. He is doing if for a reason, it's on purpose, it's not random, it's not accidental (mostly). And I could tell you that if he gets with a certain distance of player and that player jumps laterally then he leaves some piece of human where he is standing, but the truth is, there is a ball we cannot see here.

Unfortunately, unlike the Higgs Boson illustration, knowing that there is an invisible ball doesn't make things make sense. But it does let us know that we don't know the rules to his game, so we don't know what the game is.

[Batman]

possible apron wrapping

John Ryan, a riverside labourer, was standing on the morning of 4 June 1889 when he saw some boys throwing stones at something in the water. One of them hooked the floating object, which appeared to be an apron, onto the mud of the shore and found part of a woman’s body - Trow, M.J

[jerryd]

It hasn't jerry thank you and that's the first I've heard of the respectably dressed man. The last line seems to reiterate what I've been saying. How many could have been intimately acquainted with the vaults? Someone who worked there before construction began?

According to details given by Chief Inspector Swanson in a report dated 19 October 1888, regarding Israel Schwartz's statement.

Second man age 35 ht. 5 ft 11in. comp. fresh, hair light brown, moustache brown, dress dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat wide brim, had a clay pipe in his hand.

This seems to fit Mr. Miller's description of John Cleary fairly close and also the man seen on Cannon Street jumping the boards near Whitehall was described age 35. The boards, if I remember correctly were 7 or 8 feet high.

[Batman]

Hi Batman,

I'm assuming you know that one body part was thrown over the wall of Sir Percy Shelley’s estate in Chelsea. He was the son of Mary Shelley.

That's right.

Oh my.

[RockySullivan]

I guess the fetus in pickle jar could suggest the organs were "prasarved"...what about the chlorine powder? It's possible the killer stopped using this because it was too specific and felt it could be traced back to him. Is it possible to find anywhere that produced this powder in london in 1884? How common was it and what trade was it specific to?

[jerryd]

What is interesting is the parts that are not being found. The parts that are, are being dumped/found at different times and locations. Once introducing JtR harvesting of sexual organs, its like pieces of a puzzle coming together to form a body that has a head somewhere.

Hi Batman,

I'm assuming you know that one body part was thrown over the wall of Sir Percy Shelley’s estate in Chelsea. He was the son of Mary Shelley.

[Batman]

What is interesting is the parts that are not being found. The parts that are, are being dumped/found at different times and locations. Once introducing JtR harvesting of sexual organs, its like pieces of a puzzle coming together to form a body that has a head somewhere.

[John G]

Yes john I've found this far too coincidentall. I believe there is a connection here but was it pipeman & BSman or was torso simply referencing and mocking the incident with Schwartz?

Hi Rocky,

Yes, I think it could have been a macabre joke. It may also be of significance that the Pinchin Street victim was mutilated in a similar way to JtR's victims. Could this murder have been intended to make amends for a failure to mutilate Stride the previous year?

There are certainly many coincidences; I've just updated my previous post to include the fact that the first part of the Whitehall (Scotland Yard) Torso, an arm, was discovered on the river bank- a couple of hundred yards away from where part of the Rainham body was found the previous year- on the 11th, Septrmber, 1888, just 3 days after Chapman's murder. Moreover, the parcel in which the Torso was wrapped included a newspaper, dated 24th August 1888, i.e exactly a week before Nichols was killed. However, the doctors believed this victim had been killed in early August.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky,

According to Trow the only women in the 1880s who would have been tattooed would be the "exotic" and the "avant- guard". This could relate to a high class society women but could also indicate a high class prostitute. This provides a tenuous connection to MJK, who had worked in the high class brothels, before turning to drink, and of the C5 murders Kelly's most closely resembles a Torso victim.

I've been looking at some interesting facts relating to the Pinchin Street Torso victim. As I noted in an earlier post, Pinchin Street was very close to Berner Street and the railway arches, where the torso was found, could have been the same arches that Scwartz ran to.

Annie Chapman was murdered on the 8th September 1888; the Pinchin Street Torso was discovered on the 10th September 1889, but it was believed that she'd been killed 2 days earlier, i.e. on the anniversary of Annie's death.

And then there's this interesting article from The East London Advertiser, 14th September 1889:

"That the memory of the notorious criminal [Lipski] is still fresh in the minds of the inhabitants around is shown by the fact that on a black paling opposite the arch under which the unknown body was hidden someone had written the word "Lipski" in large chalk letters. Whether done before the discovery or after no one seems to know, but the name was there."

Of course, Scwartz claimed that BS man shouted the name Lipski at him after he witnessed an assault on Stride.

Yes john I've found this far too coincidentall. I believe there is a connection here but was it pipeman & BSman or was torso simply referencing and mocking the incident with Schwartz?

[John G]

At the same time the Tottenham torso also had a tattoo right? The whitehall torso was also suggested to be lower class because of the gaiter marks which were below the knee.

Hi Rocky,

According to Trow the only women in the 1880s who would have been tattooed would be the "exotic" and the "avant- guard". This could relate to a high class society women but could also indicate a high class prostitute. This provides a tenuous connection to MJK, who had worked in the high class brothels, before turning to drink, and of the C5 murders Kelly's most closely resembles a Torso victim.

I've been looking at some interesting facts relating to the Pinchin Street Torso victim. As I noted in an earlier post, Pinchin Street was very close to Berner Street and the railway arches, where the torso was found, could have been the same arches that Scwartz ran to.

Annie Chapman was murdered on the 8th September 1888; the Pinchin Street Torso was discovered on the 10th September 1889, but it was believed that she'd been killed 2 days earlier, i.e. on the anniversary of Annie's death. Interestingly, on the 11th September, 1888, three days after Annie was killed, the first part of the Whitehall Torso, a women's arm, was discovered on the river bank- just a couple of hundred yards away from where part of the Rainham Torso had been found the previous year.

And then there's this interesting article from The East London Advertiser, 14th September 1889:

"That the memory of the notorious criminal [Lipski] is still fresh in the minds of the inhabitants around is shown by the fact that on a black paling opposite the arch under which the unknown body was hidden someone had written the word "Lipski" in large chalk letters. Whether done before the discovery or after no one seems to know, but the name was there."

Of course, Scwartz claimed that BS man shouted the name Lipski at him after he witnessed an assault on Stride.

[RockySullivan]

What is interesting is that some of the Torso Murderers victims appeared to be from a much higher social class than the 1888 victims. For example, Dr Samuel Lloyd concluded that the Tottenham Court victim was a woman of refinement, based upon the "shape of the delicate arms, hands and well-manicured nails...the face was smooth and the hair long and fair". (Trow, 2011). The Whitehall victim was described as well-nourished and the liver, spleen and kidneys were normal, so clearly not an alcoholic, unlike many of the working-class women of the period. In respect of the Pinchon Street victim, her hands suggested that she had not been used to hard manual work; in fact she could have been a writer, as evidenced by the fact that "the right little finger had small circular hardening which might have been caused by writing". (Trow, 2011) Her nails were described as well kept and her organs were described by Dr Hebbert as "fairly healthy."

At the same time the Tottenham torso also had a tattoo right? The whitehall torso was also suggested to be lower class because of the gaiter marks which were below the knee.

[John G]

I still subscribe to the multiple killer theory within the same group. Not necessarily the High Rip gang as this suggests, but, who knows. Interesting this note talks about one killer in the east end and one killer in the west end.

Daily News
United Kingdom
5 October 1888

"3 October.
Dear Boss *
Since last, splendid success. Two more and never a squeal. Oh, I am master of the art! I am going to be heavy on the guilded * now, we are. Some dutchess will cut up nicely, and the lace will show nicely. You wonder how. Oh, we are masters. No education like a butcher's. No animal like a nice woman * the fat are best. On to Brighton for a holiday, but we shan't idle * splendid high class women there. My mouth waters * good luck there. If
not, you will hear from me in West end. My pal will keep on at the east a while yet. When I get a nobility * I will send it on to C. Warren, or perhaps to you for a keepsake. O, it is jolly.
George of the High Rip Gang.
Red ink still, but a drop of the real stuff in it."


The other interesting thing about this one is the comment about nobility. Send what to Warren? Is this suggesting a body, as in torso?

What is interesting is that some of the Torso Murderers victims appeared to be from a much higher social class than the 1888 victims. For example, Dr Samuel Lloyd concluded that the Tottenham Court victim was a woman of refinement, based upon the "shape of the delicate arms, hands and well-manicured nails...the face was smooth and the hair long and fair". (Trow, 2011). The Whitehall victim was described as well-nourished and the liver, spleen and kidneys were normal, so clearly not an alcoholic, unlike many of the working-class women of the period. In respect of the Pinchin Street victim, her hands suggested that she had not been used to hard manual work; in fact she could have been a writer, as evidenced by the fact that "the right little finger had small circular hardening which might have been caused by writing". (Trow, 2011) Her nails were described as well kept and her organs were described by Dr Hebbert as "fairly healthy."