Was JtR a necrophile?

[Ausgirl]

Personally, I see the Pinchin Street Torso as evidence of a killer who is jealous at the publicity JtR'S murders's attracted, and he was determined to respond in his own style, with a JtR pastiche, clearly intended as another macabre joke.

Really had to wonder whether the body part chucked over the fence at the Shelley estate was some kind of sick joke too.

[John G]

I personally think that the Torso Murderer and JtR were probably different killers. Thus, the Torso killings demonstrated a highly consistent MO over a 16 year period: all of the victims were dismembered by someone who was extremely knowledgeable about joint disarticulation- in the case of the Batersea Toro, 1873, for example, even the victims face was removed from the skull with precision. And, in all of the Torso cases, even the earlier ones, the exact same instruments were used: a knife and fine saw. The killer also dismembered his victims at his leisure, unlike JtR, who had to operate much more quickly.

With the C5 and Tabram we see none of this kind of consistency. Tabram wasn't mutilated and was attacked in a frenzied manner; Nichols had no organs removed; Stride wasn't mutilated at all; Chapman and Eddowes were mutilated, arguably in a surgically precise way, and organs were removed; Kelly was killed indoors and appeared to have been mutilated by someone in the midst of a frenzy, similar to Tabram, demonstrating no surgical or anatomical skill.

There was also a very different victimology: JtR's victims were mainly middle aged working class prostitutes, whereas Torso's victims were probably of a significantly higher social class, possibly West End prostitutes, and much younger- probably aged between 23-35.

Moreover, JtR simply left his victims where they were killed. Torso, on the other hand, used dump sites, and this suggests a radically different signature. Whereas it's been speculated that JtR was a lust killer, Torso seemed to be motivated by the thrill of taunting the police and by creating shock value.

For instance, consider some of the enormous,and unnecessary risks he took, and the effect they were probably designed to create: In respect of the Girl with the Rose Tattoo the lower body parts were placed in an area constantly patrolled by the police. The Whitehall Torso was left in the vaults of the Scotland Yard building that was under construction. Some of Liz Jackson's body parts were deposited in a garden belonging to an ancestor of Mary Shelley. The Pinchin Street Torso was deposited just a few hundred yards from where Stride had been murdered, and probably by the same arches that Scwartz had run to; she may have been killed exactly a year after Chapman. Moreover, the Torso was placed between two sleeping drunks, another enormous risk.

Personally, I see the Pinchin Street Torso as evidence of a killer who is jealous at the publicity JtR'S murders's attracted, and he was determined to respond in his own style, with a JtR pastiche, clearly intended as another macabre joke.

[Batman]

Moving slowly over time

Some of the torsos had body parts such as one arm, still attached, which was used to carry the torso. I'm not sure how this was done but it seems the torso was swung over someone's back and the arm over the shoulder as a handle, I think. So it seems whoever disposed on the parts, had some carrying to do, which meant some walking.

I don't think the torso killer moved any parts quickly from point A to B. I think he had lots of dump sites and slowly moved the parts through different dump zones before finding the target zone. Dumping zones may only be transitory.

It might be the case that the torso killer never kept all the body parts together at one time, but reassembled them at certain times. For example, the building site torso is the main trunk of the body, a heavy part, but arms and legs could be reassembled with ease. Then he has the head he brings with him or something. When the sexual organs are too degraded he goes out to kill a prostitute and harvest fresh parts.

This actually means he doesn't need a bolt house. He might perform these mutilations in a secluded place and simply move everything about. In fact many of the 'dump' sites, might have been because he feared being caught with the sack and dumped it quickly. Just dropped it and it gets discovered quickly. When things rot too much, he dumps those in the Thames. He probably had some main areas he used he wanted to keep clear.

[jerryd]

I still like your nightmen theory or street sweeper better.

If one buys into Clay-pipe McKenzie as a ripper victim then this is also of interest for the street sweeper theory.

Scavenger Occupation (definition): A street cleaner

Here is testimony of PC Walter Andrews at the inquest.

Was any wagon there? - Two; one was a scavenger's wagon, and the other a brewer's dray. They were on the same side of the way. The wagons hid the body from persons in the cottages opposite. The head was almost underneath the scavenger's wagon.

[RockySullivan]

Wow jerry I hadn't read that before and it's the most interesting post I've ever read on here. Woods attack sounds an awful lot like Emma smith's. Railway police records might still available I'm surprised no suspect has come up perhaps one day?

I still like your nightmen theory or street sweeper better. A railway police men or a nightmen/sweeper still leaves the question of where the anatomical knowledge comes from...

[Rosella]

It is interesting, and solves the problem of transportation of the bodies to various locations. With the caveat, of course, that the killer would still have to be extremely careful, if he was found off duty with a parcel in locations he wasn't supposed to be at.

[RockySullivan]

Wow jerry I hadn't read that before and it's the most interesting post I've ever read on here. Woods attack sounds an awful lot like Emma smith's. Railway police records might still available I'm surprised no suspect has come up perhaps one day?

[jerryd]

Hi Rocky,

Have you ever read the Railway Policeman theory by Bernard Brown? It makes perfect sense for the escape routes. More so than the sewers in my opinion. In addition, he shows how all the murders were near a police fixed point that were unmanned at 1 a.m.

Here are a few quotes of interest to this thread from his theory.

1) After the "double event" Jack is believed to have lain low. However, on 3rd October the limbless and headless torso of a woman was found on the site of none other than the intended New Scotland Yard. What better way to snub the Commissioner of Police than to deposit a body at the very heart of the Metropolitan Police itself, a murder which, despite newspaper speculation was not attributed to the Ripper?

The site would have been well protected by local "A" Division men from King Street Police Station, due to Fenian attacks such as that at Old Scotland Yard in 1884. In addition, there was a fixed point at Bridge Street, outside Westminster Underground Station with a clear view of the site, but no one observed anything untoward.

So how did Jack execute a difficult climb complete with the body? The answer is that he didn't. It is too much of a coincidence that beneath New Scotland Yard ran the District railway which since 1884 had run direct to Whitechapel?


2)Between may and June 1889, well away from the Ripper district, what was believed to be the remains of prostitute Elizabeth JACKSON of Sloane Square were washed up in the Thames at Chelsea and Battersea Park. At first glance it would appear to be unconnected with the ripper except that Sloane Square has an Underground Station from which there conveniently ran the District Railway direct to Whitechapel!

However Sloane Square Station is some distance from the river, so how did the remains get there?

If you stand on the platform of Sloane Square and look upwards, a rounded culvert can be seen carrying the Ranelagh Sewer out into the Thames. Formally the River Westbourne, it discharges its contents exactly where the human remains were found!

3) Another torso was found on 10th September 1889 in Pinchin Street, beneath the Great Eastern Railway arches. This was not on the main line, but on a spur which led to the Commercial Road Goods Depot alongside Lambeth Street. This body, believed to be Lydia HART, had been killed elsewhere, and obviously transported by this means. To avoid the Police patrols the Ripper had only to walk along the elevated railway and alight at Cannon Street Road where, known only to him, there was a deserted railway station (1842-1848). Or, alternatively, continue as far as Shadwell, where he could once again descend to the underground railway back to Whitechapel.

Here is a link to Brown's theory that J. Menges kindly supplied in the casebook archives. I have always felt this to be spot on but wished he named a suspect. http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-185.html

[RockySullivan]

nice post jerry, if the vaults could be accessed through the sewers that would be really significant

[jerryd]

Echo
London, U.K.
17 August 1888

NO WEAPON DISCOVERED.
No weapon with which the murder could have been perpetrated has yet been discovered, though the sewers in the vicinity of George-yard-buildings have been searched. There has, however, as we say, been a clue discovered which may be of some service. A woman has, it is stated, come forward and asserted that at midnight a man took a bed in her house, which is situated in the neighbourhood, stating that he had lost his train for the country, and could not return that night. He was dressed in the uniform of a soldier. This story has been enquired into by the police, but the result is not yet known. Some importance, however, is attached to the clue.

The sewers were searched as early as the Tabram murder. They were also searched after the Eddowes murder.

Regarding your question of sewer access to the vaults in Whitehall, I still contend the Adelphi Arch tunnels were accessible in 1888/89. They extended underground from Strand to Whitefriars. I am still trying to figure out if they extended to the Whitehall vaults.

[RockySullivan]

Yes ive taken a look at sewer/sewer hand references on casebook but the discussion has yielded not much Info over the years that I can find. I believe the ripper may have had a human waste fetish. The way he smeared the feces over, taking the uterus, kidney , placing intestines...all organs related to human waste. The consensus over the years has generally been the ripper prized sex organs but I think it was organs that are processing waste which were significant to him. I assume bleach powder would have been used as an industrial cleaner for the sewer system

[jerryd]

Here is a good thread on the subject Rocky.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1657

[RockySullivan]

THE EAST-END MURDERS.
A TALK WITH THE POLICE.

REWARDS OFFERED.

LETTER FROM THE HOME SECRETARY.

LATEST DETAILS.

Another four-and-twenty hours of excitement and anxiety for the East-end have elapsed, and so far as can be learned absolutely no progress has been made towards the solution of the terrible riddle which all England is looking to the City and Metropolitan Police to solve. Mr. Baxter yesterday morning began his inquest into the Berner-street case, but the evidence added nothing material to the information already in possession of the public, and, though one or two arrests have been made, up till a late hour last night nothing important had come of them. "We attach no importance to any of them," said a responsible police officer last evening. "They have been merely cases in which inquiry seemed desirable, but we think little of them. We have been able to make no important arrests." "You have had no doubt many suggestions made to you?" it was remarked. "Oh yes, a great many, and some of the papers have made some startling discoveries of important clues, but I am unable to say that the police have at present any knowledge of them." "Have you heard it suggested that the murderer may possibly have managed to elude the observation of the police and to get out of the immediate vicinity of his victim by means of the sewers?" "No," replied the officer, laying down his pen, and settling back in his chair with a look of interest, "you mean that he may have got down a manhole into the sewer and made off underground?" "Yes, that is the idea-not perhaps very feasible, but it may be not totally impossible." "Have you ever been down into the sewers?" was the officer's inquiry. "Ah! Then you know something of the difficulty which would be experienced in getting about underground. Besides, how would he get up again? He would require a key to get down, and he must shut down the grating and the iron flap after him, and even with a key I don't think he could get up again. If he could he would be more likely to be observed creeping up out of a sewer than by walking quietly off through the streets. No," concluded the officer, "I don't think there's much in that notion." The City police expressed pretty much the same opinion.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_news/18881002.html

Has anyone looked into a correlation between sewer entrances and the ripper murder locations? It's an interesting that the policeman dismisses somewhat do to the fact that the murderer would have to a key & know his way around. If the murderer was a sewer hand this wouldn't be a problem. I wonder if it was possible to access the whitehall vault thru some type of sewer entrance or if one connected to grounds. The whitehall vault is telling because to me it indicates someone comfortable underground in the dark. I would not be surprised if the vaults connected to a sewer. Another aspect is the thames and it's embankment. Now did the thames embankment have sewer entrances or tunnels? Take a look at this picture of the victoria embankment from 1800's :http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Embankment it's the first photo under transport. This is exactly what I'm picturing. I thought I had read about the pickle jar baby being found in a sewer entrance of the embankment but it may have been another limb. This started a gruesome image in my mind. I am very opinion that a sewer hand is a very good candidate for the murders

[RockySullivan]

I posted this a few years ago on a different thread regarding Mitre Square and the Eddowes murder.

The Star, 4 Oct, 1888:

Only Twenty Yards Away.

In connection with the Mitre-square murder, the foreman of the sewer hands who are engaged at Aldgate in sweeping the streets in the early hours of the morning has stated most positively that at the time when the murder is supposed to have been perpetrated he was standing not more than 20 yards away from the spot where the body was found. He never heard any woman's cries for help, nor any sounds of a struggle.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/11130.html

Jerry I wish we had more info on this. If the foreman was so close I imagine he would have workers close by? This question could be very significant : were the sewer hands employed by the whitechapel board of works that owned the land behind the pinchin archway? I think the killer was very likely a sewer hand

[RockySullivan]

I do find fairclough's black eyes suspicious but he story checked out apparently