Was JtR a necrophile?

[GUT]

Yes, you're probably correct Maybe the Whitehall torso (and Pinchin St) were the work of one killer and the other, earlier ones belonged to another muderer or gang of murderers entirely.

I don't think Lusk had a huge building company. It was probably him, a workman and an apprentice! He specialised in the renovating and repair of music halls, apparently.

Didn't Lusk also do work on the hospital?

[Rosella]

Yes, you're probably correct Maybe the Whitehall torso (and Pinchin St) were the work of one killer and the other, earlier ones belonged to another muderer or gang of murderers entirely.

I don't think Lusk had a huge building company. It was probably him, a workman and an apprentice! He specialised in the renovating and repair of music halls, apparently.

[RockySullivan]

Another possibility is the foreman suggested either someone who knew the buildings layout very well or someone who had it described to him. This wasn't a random spot where the killer could just scope out and dump like pinchin st. It was a very specific spot in a dark almost pitch black vault. I don't think torso could just wonder in and find it. He either worked there or someone who did work there brought him in and let him hide the body parts. I do think he intended to bury and got lucky. Most likely he was one of a small number of workers who used that specific hidden location. Not random at all.

[RockySullivan]

Yes, I agree that of all the communications the unsigned From Hell letter has the best chance (and it is only a chance) of being authentic.

If Torso killer had access to a horse and cart of his own and possibly a boat from which he can dump body parts, plus some kind of warehouse or business near the Thames (butchers, horse slaughterers) where he could store things/ work undisturbed, doesn't that speak to a person in fairly good socio-economic circumstances? He could have bought his victims drinks in pubs, lured them to a room at his works etc.

Possible rosella but I don't see someone like that being familiar with the nooks of the whitehall vault and frequenting the place. It's about as close to the literal underworld as you can get. The more I look it the more it looks like someone who works in the vault. He might not have meant for the torso to be found since the limbs were buried. He could have kept it hidden with his tools where no one goes and figured once it was buried there was no chance it would ever be found. I think it could be one of the guys who kept his tools in the vault. Why Lusk? Didn't he own a construction company? Perhaps one of the workers from whitehall knew lusk or had worked for him. It would be so important to know if the worker was questioned and admitted being there the night of the barrow sighting was one of the men who kept his tools in the crevice of he vault where the torso was found

[Rosella]

Yes, I agree that of all the communications the unsigned From Hell letter has the best chance (and it is only a chance) of being authentic.

If Torso killer had access to a horse and cart of his own and possibly a boat from which he can dump body parts, plus some kind of warehouse or business near the Thames (butchers, horse slaughterers) where he could store things/ work undisturbed, doesn't that speak to a person in fairly good socio-economic circumstances? He could have bought his victims drinks in pubs, lured them to a room at his works etc.

[Abby Normal]

Abby I think cannibalism is the strongest motive for organ removal simply because it's what the from hell letter claims. Was there any letters that talk about the torso murders aside from the one that claims it's not the rippers work?

not that I know of. But IMHO From hell, out of all the letters seems to me the one that is most likely to be authentic.

[RockySullivan]

The Frankenripper!!! I love it!
Or how about Frank the Ripper. Or Rippenstein? The Torsoripper?

Seriously, though-its an intriguing idea. Possible of course but it just sounds so out there I need to think about it. Ive always felt, more than most, apparently, that the Torso murders and ripper murders have the slight possibility of being from the same man. Main reason-The torso victims all have signs of abdominal mutilations.

And if it was the same man, then the torsos are done when he can bring victims home, and dismemberment is simply for ease in removing the bodies from his home, and the ripper murders were done when he couldn't, so he had to kill and mutilate in the streets.

OK-thought about it some more.

Heres the thing. If its like you said-surely some of the time frames are to long for continual refurbishment of a corpse right? the franken corpse is going to rot away-I mean we are talking years between some of the torso/ripper killings.

Also, to me there are just too many exteranneous cuts-to face, to body, and also body parts that could have been taken away but weren't-the breasts for example. Plus someone who could remove uterus and kidney in the dark of night, probably wouldn't have any problem removing and taking away what he wanted like face parts.

If the MO is strictly to harvest body parts then I see too much other stuff going on.

Im going to think about it some more, but to me it seems like the rippers main thing was getting off with what his knife could do to the female body-the act of cutting and mutilating. Organ removal was a way to prolong or relive it.

But im going to throw something out there for you to think about Batman-What if the Ripper, or the Torsoman, or Frankenrippers main motivation was Cannibalism. and more specifically the cannibalism of female internal organs?

Abby I think cannibalism is the strongest motive for organ removal simply because it's what the from hell letter claims. Was there any letters that talk about the torso murders aside from the one that claims it's not the rippers work?

[Abby Normal]

Elizabeth Jacksons body parts are turning up in June 1888 through to June 1889. There is also the Whitehall mystery in Sep 1888 and October 1888.

The explanatory power behind someone harvesting sexual organs and replacing body parts on a corpse, and other parts, to maintain it, solves why he took away the organs and connects it to the Torso murders. It means the harvested parts served a function and had purpose.

We should have guessed this from Ed Gein.

I think most people understood that he was harvesting for sexual reasons. What I think we didn't connect was that his sexual reasons didn't involve just using the parts alone, but using them to keep his designer corpse sexually fresh.

This puts a spin on things considerably. It gives us more evidence to go on, Torso murders (I have been reading Trow since a week ago) and means JtR had to have a place where he could keep a corpse to work on. It also brings in the element of medical skill which Bond saw in the body parts.

The Frankenripper!!! I love it!
Or how about Frank the Ripper. Or Rippenstein? The Torsoripper?

Seriously, though-its an intriguing idea. Possible of course but it just sounds so out there I need to think about it. Ive always felt, more than most, apparently, that the Torso murders and ripper murders have the slight possibility of being from the same man. Main reason-The torso victims all have signs of abdominal mutilations.

And if it was the same man, then the torsos are done when he can bring victims home, and dismemberment is simply for ease in removing the bodies from his home, and the ripper murders were done when he couldn't, so he had to kill and mutilate in the streets.

OK-thought about it some more.

Heres the thing. If its like you said-surely some of the time frames are to long for continual refurbishment of a corpse right? the franken corpse is going to rot away-I mean we are talking years between some of the torso/ripper killings.

Also, to me there are just too many exteranneous cuts-to face, to body, and also body parts that could have been taken away but weren't-the breasts for example. Plus someone who could remove uterus and kidney in the dark of night, probably wouldn't have any problem removing and taking away what he wanted like face parts.

If the MO is strictly to harvest body parts then I see too much other stuff going on.

Im going to think about it some more, but to me it seems like the rippers main thing was getting off with what his knife could do to the female body-the act of cutting and mutilating. Organ removal was a way to prolong or relive it.

But im going to throw something out there for you to think about Batman-What if the Ripper, or the Torsoman, or Frankenrippers main motivation was Cannibalism. and more specifically the cannibalism of female internal organs?

[RockySullivan]

Batman what torso is the killer using for the body? Are you suggesting more victims with no parts found?

The boat idea is interesting. There is quite a distance between whitehall, and the pinchin dump sites. How is torso covering such a large ground? He has a boat or a car? Too long of a walk for a push cart? The railway train to pinchin is not very plausible?

[lynn cates]

type

Hello Batman. Thanks. The count for those actually killed by Gein is unclear.

If you are looking for a certain type, should be easy to find. Just check the period papers and Ancestry.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello Batman.

"We should have guessed this from Ed Gein."

I should have thought Henry Lee Lucas. If I recall properly, as long as he was getting attention, the body toll proliferated at an alarming rate.

Until, that is, someone called a halt to the nonsense and the toll shrunk just as drastically.

Cheers.
LC

In the case of Ed Gein, the evidence was recovered. All of them. Not a pretty sight either.

I would be looking for arrests 1889 onwards of a Victor Ardisson type person or someone done for interfering with the dead.

[lynn cates]

Lucas

Hello Batman.

"We should have guessed this from Ed Gein."

I should have thought Henry Lee Lucas. If I recall properly, as long as he was getting attention, the body toll proliferated at an alarming rate.

Until, that is, someone called a halt to the nonsense and the toll shrunk just as drastically.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

I've been wondering whether the Torso Murderer had access to a boat. This would explain why body parts were found in the Thames. Moreover, I believe Trow argues that the Scotland Yard disposal site could have been accessed via the river. And, of course, a boat would have been an ideal place to dismember the bodies.

Regarding necrophilia, didn't Jeffrey Dahmer, who also dismembered his victims, progress to necrophilia?

I would also refer to the Pinchin Street Torso, which provides the strongest link to the Whitechapel murders.

Yes, Dahmer was a cannibal who had sex with the corpse of his victim, and not necessarily in that order.

The guy I'm looking for here was able to maintain a body somewhere where he could do this. I think it unlikely he left the body to the elements. I think it more likely he did this at a location that was his and his alone. He would have to keep temps down somehow.

Given the apron was found on Goulston Street, he may have gone to this place between Eddowes and dumping the apron. It may give us a location as to where someone could act in such a secretive manner. We are looking for someone with some medical skill too.

[John G]

Elizabeth Jacksons body parts are turning up in June 1888 through to June 1889. There is also the Whitehall mystery in Sep 1888 and October 1888.

The explanatory power behind someone harvesting sexual organs and replacing body parts on a corpse, and other parts, to maintain it, solves why he took away the organs and connects it to the Torso murders. It means the harvested parts served a function and had purpose.

We should have guessed this from Ed Gein.

I think most people understood that he was harvesting for sexual reasons. What I think we didn't connect was that his sexual reasons didn't involve just using the parts alone, but using them to keep his designer corpse sexually fresh.

This puts a spin on things considerably. It gives us more evidence to go on, Torso murders (I have been reading Trow since a week ago) and means JtR had to have a place where he could keep a corpse to work on. It also brings in the element of medical skill which Bond saw in the body parts.

I've been wondering whether the Torso Murderer had access to a boat. This would explain why body parts were found in the Thames. Moreover, I believe Trow argues that the Scotland Yard disposal site could have been accessed via the river. And, of course, a boat would have been an ideal place to dismember the bodies.

Regarding necrophilia, didn't Jeffrey Dahmer, who also dismembered his victims, progress to necrophilia?

I would also refer to the Pinchin Street Torso, which provides the strongest link to the Whitechapel murders.

[Batman]

Has this solution ever been suggested before?

Elizabeth Jacksons body parts are turning up in June 1888 through to June 1889. There is also the Whitehall mystery in Sep 1888 and October 1888.

The explanatory power behind someone harvesting sexual organs and replacing body parts on a corpse, and other parts, to maintain it, solves why he took away the organs and connects it to the Torso murders. It means the harvested parts served a function and had purpose.

We should have guessed this from Ed Gein.

I think most people understood that he was harvesting for sexual reasons. What I think we didn't connect was that his sexual reasons didn't involve just using the parts alone, but using them to keep his designer corpse sexually fresh.

This puts a spin on things considerably. It gives us more evidence to go on, Torso murders (I have been reading Trow since a week ago) and means JtR had to have a place where he could keep a corpse to work on. It also brings in the element of medical skill which Bond saw in the body parts.