Was JtR a necrophile?

[RockySullivan]

They would. It's a primary ingredient in making cement, it was used as plaster, and it was usually spread over trash piles if the content was organic. And sometimes organic stuff comes up when digging foundations.

it was also a sanitizing and bleaching powder, source of heat, illumination, used in purification and stabilization.

And is caustic enough to strip a body quickly and minimize the smell of decay.

I think anytime you see a body with lime on it, it was used to speed up decay. And it's very good at it's job. But if it was the torso killer, why only use it once?

Perhaps he felt it could be traced to him or it's use might point to his profession

[Errata]

John I am referring to the lime powder or chlorinated bleach. From what I've read it was used in copious amount to the point where one body part was thrown over a railing into some spikes the powder left residue all over the spikes. But from what I understand it was sanitizing/bleaching powder. Yes it was used to decompose the bodies and I guess construction workers wouldn't be using this type of powder?

They would. It's a primary ingredient in making cement, it was used as plaster, and it was usually spread over trash piles if the content was organic. And sometimes organic stuff comes up when digging foundations.

it was also a sanitizing and bleaching powder, source of heat, illumination, used in purification and stabilization.

And is caustic enough to strip a body quickly and minimize the smell of decay.

I think anytime you see a body with lime on it, it was used to speed up decay. And it's very good at it's job. But if it was the torso killer, why only use it once?

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky,

Not sure. It appears that the lime was used to aid decomposition: In the case of the Putney Torso, for example, Dr Barnes opined that a covering of lime had been used for this purpose.

Actually, I've just realized you're not referring to the lime! Sorry, just checked Trow and he hardly mentions the powder, so still not sure. I'll leave in the "lime" paragraph for additional info!

John I am referring to the lime powder or chlorinated bleach. From what I've read it was used in copious amount to the point where one body part was thrown over a railing into some spikes the powder left residue all over the spikes. But from what I understand it was sanitizing/bleaching powder. Yes it was used to decompose the bodies and I guess construction workers wouldn't be using this type of powder?

[John G]

Hmm....was the powder used on the 1884 torso used for any construction purposes?

Hi Rocky,

Not sure. It appears that the lime was used to aid decomposition: In the case of the Putney Torso, for example, Dr Barnes opined that a covering of lime had been used for this purpose.

Actually, I've just realized you're not referring to the lime! Sorry, just checked Trow and he hardly mentions the powder, so still not sure. I'll leave in the "lime" paragraph for additional info!

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky,

I think one thing that's interesting about Richard Lawrence is that he was 40 years old at the time of the Whitehall Mystery (Scotland Yard Torso), so he would have been 25 at the time of the Battersea Torso, 1873. He also admitted to retrieving his tools from the recess where the parcel with the torso was found the same day, but claimed he saw nothing. However, it should be noted that although Winborn found the parcel that day- he left his tools in the same recess- he didn't immediately act upon his discovery. It was only when it was still there the next day that he reported the matter to his foreman and the parcel was opened, revealing the torso.

Hmm....was the powder used on the 1884 torso used for any construction purposes?

[John G]

Hi Rocky,

I think one thing that's interesting about Richard Lawrence is that he was 40 years old at the time of the Whitehall Mystery (Scotland Yard Torso), so he would have been 25 at the time of the Battersea Torso, 1873. He also admitted to retrieving his tools from the recess where the parcel with the torso was found the same day, but claimed he saw nothing. However, it should be noted that although Winborn found the parcel that day- he left his tools in the same recess- he didn't immediately act upon his discovery. It was only when it was still there the next day that he reported the matter to his foreman and the parcel was opened, revealing the torso.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky,

Good point about police beats-obviously a crucial issue at Mitre Square as well. I agree that he must have had a knowledge of the Scotland Yard site, however, it was still a tremendous and audacious gamble, particularly when you consider he could have just thrown the body parts in the Thames.

Regarding the earlier Battersea Torso, a knife and fine saw were used for dismemberment, exactly the same tools as the latter cases.

Interesting about the tools John. My theory about the whitehall torso is the killer may have been one of the workers possibly Lawrwnce or Young who kept their tools in the very dark part of vault where the torso was found and limbs buried. The medical opinion was that the parts had been in the vault for six weeks and had left a black stain from decomposing on the wall. Nothing could convince me these workers wouldn't notice a decomposing torso filled with maggots and limb sticking out of the ground. The workers may have figured they were safe.

"Frederick Wildborn was the first witness examined, and he said: I live at 17, Mansell-road, Clapham Junction, and am a carpenter employed by Messrs. Grover and Sons at the New Central Police Office at Westminster. On Tuesday last I was at the buildings, and my work took me to all parts of the place during the day. At six o’clock on the morning of the previous day I had occasion to go to the vaults to find my tools, my labourer having taken them there on the Saturday. I then noticed what I took to be an old coat thrown on one side. It was lying in the corner of a recess. It was very dark there, even in the middle of the day. I could not find my tools - my labourer having, in fact, already removed them"

Note: [Coroner] Has this vault been used for putting your tools in for any length of time? - For some weeks until the last three weeks. I always placed my tools there from Saturday to Monday, because I considered them safer there than in the locker. I have not noticed any similar parcel before.

So had the parts been in the vault for the last three weeks and six was an over estimate?

The Foreman - Were there any tools stolen from there since the works commenced?
Witness - Only one such theft that I know of.

I believe there are indications the killer was a construction worker or laborer. If a saw was used to dismember the body how many profession make use of a saw. Note the stolen tools from the vault and take note of this when considering a saw was used to dismember the bodies:

John Richardson, a market porter, was described as a tall, stout man, with a very pale face, a brown moustache, and dark brown hair. He was shabbily dressed in a ragged coat, and dark brown trousers. He explained that there had been a robbery of the cellar at number 29 Hanbury Street and some tools (two saws and two hammers) had been stolen. The door to the cellar was in the back yard where Richardson's mother operated a packing case business. He stated that after the robbery it was his habit on market days to go around to Hanbury and check to see if the padlock was still secure. On non-market days, apparently, he just didn't bother.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-doubt.html

[John G]

Hi john, I think that 5 minute window shows connections to the rippers MO of timing police beats. I used to think the whitehall torso was a dig at Scotland Yard, but now I think Scotland Yard just happen to be one place the killer could dig at.

Hi Rocky,

Good point about police beats-obviously a crucial issue at Mitre Square as well. I agree that he must have had a knowledge of the Scotland Yard site, however, it was still a tremendous and audacious gamble, particularly when you consider he could have just thrown the body parts in the Thames.

Regarding the earlier Battersea Torso, a knife and fine saw were used for dismemberment, exactly the same tools as the latter cases.

[RockySullivan]

I think all of the Torso Murders were the responsibility of the same killer, even the earlier Battersea and Putney Torsos. As Trow points out, "Whoever dismembered the Torso victims-all of them-was very adept at joint disarticulation and did it well." (Trow, 2011)

As regards the Tottenham Torso-the "The Girl with the Rose Tattoo", the display of body parts are indicative of a rare, if not unique, signature, as are the subsequent torso murders. What is also remarkable is that the appearance suggested a women of refinement. Moreover, whoever deposited the body demonstrated incredible daring as the area was regularly patrolled by the police: giving the killer just a 5 minute window of opportunity during which the relief took place. It was as if the killer was taunting the police, as with the Scotland Yard torso, and Pinchin Street-just a few hundred yards away from Berner Street, possibly deposited by the same railway arches that Scwartz ran to, with the victim probably murdered on the anniversary of Chapman's murder.

Hi john, I think that 5 minute window shows connections to the rippers MO of timing police beats. I used to think the whitehall torso was a dig at Scotland Yard, but now I think Scotland Yard just happen to be one place the killer could dig at.

[John G]

I think all of the Torso Murders were the responsibility of the same killer, even the earlier Battersea and Putney Torsos. As Trow points out, "Whoever dismembered the Torso victims-all of them-was very adept at joint disarticulation and did it well." (Trow, 2011)

As regards the Tottenham Torso-the "The Girl with the Rose Tattoo", the display of body parts are indicative of a rare, if not unique, signature, as are the subsequent torso murders. What is also remarkable is that the appearance suggested a women of refinement. Moreover, whoever deposited the body demonstrated incredible daring as the area was regularly patrolled by the police: giving the killer just a 5 minute window of opportunity during which the relief took place. It was as if the killer was taunting the police, as with the Scotland Yard torso, and Pinchin Street-just a few hundred yards away from Berner Street, possibly deposited by the same railway arches that Scwartz ran to, with the victim probably murdered on the anniversary of Chapman's murder.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Errata, not sure how much you've looked into the 1884 torso(s) case but what's your opinion? Work if the torso killer? The skull was found but dumping similar. Except for the line powder. What's your opinion on the killer's use of the powder?

[RockySullivan]

Lime powder of line powder? The latter I can't say I've heard of. The former has been used in the form of quicklime to break down flesh and bone for the past 600 years or so. It's been used to make concrete since the Roman era. And farmers have been using it to change the pH in soil pretty much since the dawn of man. And there are a million uses for it beyond all that. Water filtration, pickling, as a preservative, whitewashing buildings... The stuff is everywhere. A trace presence is probably on every corpse ever, but an actual deposit of power or liquid on a corpse is probably used to melt flesh off of bone over the course of a few weeks. Quicklime can do it in a day or two.

Chlorinated bleach powder

[Errata]

The girl with the rose tattoo is such an interesting case. It's the only torso with which they found the head. The disposal is very similar to other torso cases especially the parcels & newspapers. But what was line powder used for in 1884? The medical profession? It should be a big clue. How many people would have access to it. The powder was heavily applied apparently. I'm not sure if the average an would have access to it.

Could it have been used as a cleaning product? Would night soil men possibly have access to it?

Lime powder of line powder? The latter I can't say I've heard of. The former has been used in the form of quicklime to break down flesh and bone for the past 600 years or so. It's been used to make concrete since the Roman era. And farmers have been using it to change the pH in soil pretty much since the dawn of man. And there are a million uses for it beyond all that. Water filtration, pickling, as a preservative, whitewashing buildings... The stuff is everywhere. A trace presence is probably on every corpse ever, but an actual deposit of power or liquid on a corpse is probably used to melt flesh off of bone over the course of a few weeks. Quicklime can do it in a day or two.

[RockySullivan]

The girl with the rose tattoo is such an interesting case. It's the only torso with which they found the head. The disposal is very similar to other torso cases especially the parcels & newspapers. But what was line powder used for in 1884? The medical profession? It should be a big clue. How many people would have access to it. The powder was heavily applied apparently. I'm not sure if the average an would have access to it.

Could it have been used as a cleaning product? Would night soil men possibly have access to it?

[RockySullivan]

I wonder if there might be a connection between Francis Tyler (the man who worked for Amelia Richardson) and the one of the whitehall workers. The worker who was questioned and admitted being at the whitehall site the day the man spotted someone with a parcel...was he young or lawrence the same men who kept their tools in the spot where the torso was found and the limbs buried. The leg was only partially buried and estimated to have been there for six weeks. Something's up with these guys.

The men lawrence and young who kept their tools where the torso was are not the ones who reported it meaning they could have thought it was a safe spot. Here is the man who reported finding it. I strongly suspect young & or Lawrence is involved with the murder.

Frederick Wildborn was the first witness examined, and he said: I live at 17, Mansell-road, Clapham Junction, and am a carpenter employed by Messrs. Grover and Sons at the New Central Police Office at Westminster. On Tuesday last I was at the buildings, and my work took me to all parts of the place during the day. At six o’clock on the morning of the previous day I had occasion to go to the vaults to find my tools, my labourer having taken them there on the Saturday. I then noticed what I took to be an old coat thrown on one side. It was lying in the corner of a recess. It was very dark there, even in the middle of the day. I could not find my tools - my labourer having, in fact, already removed them. In the evening at 5.30 I went once more to the vaults, and I then noticed the parcel again. There was no smell, not in the least. I drew my mate’s attention to the parcel, and struck a wax vesta to look at it.
The Coroner: Was that the first time you had noticed it particularly? - Yes; but we did not know what it was, and came away.
[Coroner] Did you report the circumstance? - Not then. I saw the parcel again the next morning. About one o’clock Mr. Brown, the assistant foreman, came down to where I was at work, and I then informed him of what I had seen. We both went and looked at the parcel, and we thought it seemed curious.
[Coroner] Was it opened in your presence? - No.
[Coroner] Were you in the vault on the Saturday? - I was not there for a week before.
[Coroner] When you were last there did you perceive anything unusual? - No.
[Coroner] Did your labourer say anything to you about it? - No. I heard of the discovery of a body about three-quarters of an hour after Mr. Brown had seen the parcel.
[Coroner] Did the parcel remain in the same position from the Monday until you drew Mr. Brown’s attention to it? - Yes; when I lit the match was the first time I had noticed anything particular. There was some débris in the place.
[Coroner] Has this vault been used for putting your tools in for any length of time? - For some weeks until the last three weeks. I always placed my tools there from Saturday to Monday, because I considered them safer there than in the locker. I have not noticed any similar parcel before.
[Coroner] No one carrying such a parcel? - No.
[Coroner] Is there any difficulty in getting to the vault? - Yes, to a stranger.
By the Jury: There is a hoarding all round the buildings. Each time I had to strike a match in order to see the parcel. I got to the vault not by means of a plank, but of a compo floor. I was not at the works at all from the Saturday to the Monday. When I saw the parcel first I thought it was a workman’s old coat.