Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Rosella]

Night soil men. They had carts and were only allowed to work between midnight and five a.m..

[Amanda]

Well....

Hi Abby , what type of delivery men would be out delivering in the early morning hours?

Hi Rocky,

Dodgy ones, obviously

Amanda

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky
I agree-its perplexing!! I imagine he did it late at night and had access to a cart. And if his occupation required carrying around/delivering/transporting things then that would help obviously.

Hi Abby , what type of delivery men would be out delivering in the early morning hours?

[RockySullivan]

Great point mr B. If torso did use a car or van would he be able to park it and safely enter the vault without being seen? Likewise if torso was a costermongers or some kind of cart salesman who pushed around a cart, could he hide the torso in his cart, then park and it and leave it unattended while he entered the vault?

[Abby Normal]

I think the uterus was removed from torso on Whitehall & Elizabeth Jackson. I'm really curious as to how torso dumped the parts? How did he carry the torsos wrapped up in old jackets or like a parcels. The way the parts were tied up and how may be a clue. But what I really want to know is how? How did the killer sneak into the Scotland Yard basement carrying a torso in an old jacket?

Hi Rocky
I agree-its perplexing!! I imagine he did it late at night and had access to a cart. And if his occupation required carrying around/delivering/transporting things then that would help obviously.

[RockySullivan]

And when? He wouldn't have had access to a Pickford 's van whenever he felt like it.

From whitehall inquest :
Charles William Brown: I reside at 5, Hampton-terrace, Hornsey, and am assistant foreman to Messrs. Grover, at the new police offices, Whitehall. The works are shut off from the surrounding streets by a hoarding about 7ft high.
[Coroner]How many entrances are there? - Three; two in Cannon-row and one on the Embankment. There are gates at the entrances as high as the hoardings.
[Coroner]How long have these vaults been completed? - Three months.
[Coroner]Who was admitted to the works besides workmen? - No one, unless they had business.
[Coroner]Was any one kept at the gates? - No.
[Coroner]So that any person who chose could walk in? - There was no one to prevent them. On Saturdays, all the gates are locked up, except a small-one in Cannon-row.
[Coroner]Is there a watchman there? - No.
[Coroner]Who are left on the premises at night? - No one. The small gate in Cannon-row is secured by a latch, and it is not everybody who can undo it.
[Coroner]Is there any watchman outside? - No.
[Coroner]What were the approaches to the vaults? - A road made of planks laid two abreast. Once down in the vaults it is very dark. The floors have to be laid there and the drains put down. Carpenters were at work there the week before the discovery.
[Coroner]Did you observe anything about the state of the locks on the following Monday morning? - No.
[Coroner]Did they look as if they had been forced? - I did not notice.
[Coroner]Do you think previous knowledge was required to get to the vaults? - Yes, I do. I first saw the parcel about half-past two o’clock on Tuesday afternoon. I had been in the vaults on the Monday, but had not noticed any smell. I was there in the dark. On Tuesday the first witness called my attention to the parcel. He struck a light, and I saw in the corner what looked like an old coat with a piece of ham inside. I procured a lamp, and the parcel was afterwards got out and opened.
By the Jury: Tools have been stolen on the works. I do not think it possible that any one could have lowered the parcel from Richmond-mews.

http://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_whitehall.html

Testimony from the assistant foreman, he says he believes previous knowledge was required to gain access to the vault. Who would have had previous access? They say only someone who worked there or had business. It seems like possibly a small pool of people would fit the foremans criteria. Any theories?

[MrBarnett]

I think the uterus was removed from torso on Whitehall & Elizabeth Jackson. I'm really curious as to how torso dumped the parts? How did he carry the torsos wrapped up in old jackets or like a parcels. The way the parts were tied up and how may be a clue. But what I really want to know is how? How did the killer sneak into the Scotland Yard basement carrying a torso in an old jacket?

And when? He wouldn't have had access to a Pickford 's van whenever he felt like it.

[RockySullivan]

Hi rocky
I have often said the same. perhaps, if the torso man and ripper were one and the same, then the dismemberment was done for ease of removal of the body from his place-either work or home.

Perhaps the ripper victims were done in the street at times he could not bring them to his private place, and the torsos, when he could.

I believe Debra has shown that all the torsos had evidence of abdominal mutilations (as did, of course the rippers).

I think the uterus was removed from torso on Whitehall & Elizabeth Jackson. I'm really curious as to how torso dumped the parts? How did he carry the torsos wrapped up in old jackets or like a parcels. The way the parts were tied up and how may be a clue. But what I really want to know is how? How did the killer sneak into the Scotland Yard basement carrying a torso in an old jacket?

[Abby Normal]

Maybe the torsos were not necessarily dismembered to prevent identification. If MK was killed by the torso killer, he had no reason to fully dismember and spread her body around. The dismemberments may have just been a way of getting dead bodies out of his apartment piece by piece. But if Torso was the Ripper, than the "curiosity" or "fetish" seem to play a big role.

Hi rocky
I have often said the same. perhaps, if the torso man and ripper were one and the same, then the dismemberment was done for ease of removal of the body from his place-either work or home.

Perhaps the ripper victims were done in the street at times he could not bring them to his private place, and the torsos, when he could.

I believe Debra has shown that all the torsos had evidence of abdominal mutilations (as did, of course the rippers).

[GUT]

It has long occurred to me that the Torso killer may well have taken his victims apart in some small dark room in the East End, and that with very little in his way to prevent it, Marys killer could have taken her arms, and legs, and head off. She was in such a state that it almost appears that she was being slowly, piece by piece, made into a Torso. Her head was almost severed already.

Wouldn't it make more sense if we have an indoor murder that seems to be leading to making the victim into large pieces, that a man who was at large at that time, doing just that occasionally, might be considered?

Cheers

G'day Michael

You're not suggesting that MJK was some sort of stepping stone are you?

[RockySullivan]

It has long occurred to me that the Torso killer may well have taken his victims apart in some small dark room in the East End, and that with very little in his way to prevent it, Marys killer could have taken her arms, and legs, and head off. She was in such a state that it almost appears that she was being slowly, piece by piece, made into a Torso. Her head was almost severed already.

Wouldn't it make more sense if we have an indoor murder that seems to be leading to making the victim into large pieces, that a man who was at large at that time, doing just that occasionally, might be considered?

Cheers

Maybe the torsos were not necessarily dismembered to prevent identification. If MK was killed by the torso killer, he had no reason to fully dismember and spread her body around. The dismemberments may have just been a way of getting dead bodies out of his apartment piece by piece. But if Torso was the Ripper, than the "curiosity" or "fetish" seem to play a big role.

[Michael W Richards]

I think that the removal of the fetus and the dismemberment are unconnected, though not necessarily unrelated. Theres a lot of ways this could have gone down. A woman could have cut out the baby and then her man went back to the scene to clean up. The Torso Killer could have cut out a viable infant and couldn't manage to kill it, so he set it aside and finished cutting up the mother and some one found the baby. Or the Torso killer took the baby back to his wife because she just lost one. I think the first theory is the most likely, but unless there were ridiculous conditions both in the pregnancy itself and in the resulting fetus, the fetus in a jar did not come from Liz Jackson. And it is not at all unheard of for mothers who miscarry to try and preserve the remains. It is usually a shocking loss, and at that level of the development the fetus looks like a baby as opposed to early miscarriages which just looks like a blood clot. But I think Liz Jackson's baby replaced the one in the jar. The timing is too coincidental to not be related. But I have no idea where the Torso Killer fits into it, if he does at all. Related events, but not necessarily the same event.

It has long occurred to me that the Torso killer may well have taken his victims apart in some small dark room in the East End, and that with very little in his way to prevent it, Marys killer could have taken her arms, and legs, and head off. She was in such a state that it almost appears that she was being slowly, piece by piece, made into a Torso. Her head was almost severed already.

Wouldn't it make more sense if we have an indoor murder that seems to be leading to making the victim into large pieces, that a man who was at large at that time, doing just that occasionally, might be considered?

Cheers

[Errata]

Thanks for the informative post er. So you think a women had a miscarriage and dismembered liz for his baby. That's an interesting theory. Liz Jackson shares so many similarities with the torso killers victims though doesn't she? Could the torso killer have killed another pregnant woman within in days of liz? But then where is her body...so I see your point and it's a good one. Liz was said to be hanging around the banks of thames and possibly sleeping there I believe from what I read. I also read that fetus was found washed up and wrapped in a parcel on the day liz was found. Is this the pickle jar baby and was just error in the press? I will do some more research.

Deb A says that liz Jackson was seen talking to a man outside a pub shortly before her death. Pretty interesting. Pubs are key IMO http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=505&page=2

I think that the removal of the fetus and the dismemberment are unconnected, though not necessarily unrelated. Theres a lot of ways this could have gone down. A woman could have cut out the baby and then her man went back to the scene to clean up. The Torso Killer could have cut out a viable infant and couldn't manage to kill it, so he set it aside and finished cutting up the mother and some one found the baby. Or the Torso killer took the baby back to his wife because she just lost one. I think the first theory is the most likely, but unless there were ridiculous conditions both in the pregnancy itself and in the resulting fetus, the fetus in a jar did not come from Liz Jackson. And it is not at all unheard of for mothers who miscarry to try and preserve the remains. It is usually a shocking loss, and at that level of the development the fetus looks like a baby as opposed to early miscarriages which just looks like a blood clot. But I think Liz Jackson's baby replaced the one in the jar. The timing is too coincidental to not be related. But I have no idea where the Torso Killer fits into it, if he does at all. Related events, but not necessarily the same event.

[Michael W Richards]

Burke and Hare though were operating sixty years before the Ripper and were paid for fresh corpses because surgeons needed bodies to teach anatomy. The medical profession was a great deal more regulated in the 1880's than it had been in the 1820's. I think the police did investigate people with a medical background, like the medical students who had gone insane, in their hunt for the Ripper, as well as dodgy doctors.

The key point here Rosella is when did they do that? After Annie Chapmans murder. Which greatly resembles Polly Nichols murder, so we are likely talking about a single killer of those 2..at least. Those 2 murders stand out among all the other Canonicals in terms of observed skill and knowledge.

Cheers

[RockySullivan]

Thanks for the informative post er. So you think a women had a miscarriage and dismembered liz for his baby. That's an interesting theory. Liz Jackson shares so many similarities with the torso killers victims though doesn't she? Could the torso killer have killed another pregnant woman within in days of liz? But then where is her body...so I see your point and it's a good one. Liz was said to be hanging around the banks of thames and possibly sleeping there I believe from what I read. I also read that fetus was found washed up and wrapped in a parcel on the day liz was found. Is this the pickle jar baby and was just error in the press? I will do some more research.

Deb A says that liz Jackson was seen talking to a man outside a pub shortly before her death. Pretty interesting. Pubs are key IMO http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=505&page=2