Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Michael W Richards]

Yikes!

I addressed the knife question here http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6708

And it's still generally what I think. Though in the intervening years I took up carving so my knife usage today is about 1000 times more than it was then.

There is a science to cutting, and I address it in the other thread if you guys are interested. But mainly the place I think Phillips screwed up is how knives work horizontally as opposed to vertically. A person standing up who stabs another person standing up generally does so with enough force to drive the blade in about 2/5 of the way in (simplifying the physics here). So if you have a 2 inch stab wound, the blade is 5 inches long. But stabbing a person lying down drives the knife in about 4/5 of the way in. So a 2 inch stab wound lying down comes from a 2.5 inch blade.

Add to that there are no singular stab wounds with bruising ever mentioned. Bruising or indentation means the killers slammed the hilt guard against the wound. It's the surest sign that the blade was completely sheathed in the body, and simply measuring the depth of that wound gives you the blade length. But as best I can tell, there are no such wounds. But I can tell you that a 6-8 inch blade during certain aspects of these attacks would result in carving up the victim's back from the inside. In other words, exit wounds. None are mentioned.

Here is what you said in the quote you offered a link for;

".....The thing is, if you compile a list of all the weapons description in all the attacks, the guy had to have access to an arsenal in order to use that many different blades. So either he was terribly resourceful when it came to getting knives, or the forensic identification of blades available at the time was not quite up to snuff."

I wondering how could you ignore the blatantly obvious possibility that Phillips and the others were roughly correct in their estimations and that these were simply different knives used by different men. And I believe you've ignored every penetration angle but 90 and 180 in the above statement.

When the demonstrated skill with a knife suddenly becomes in question, as it is with every Canonical murder after Annies, its only logical to look at alternative uses of knives in the area, usage that doesn't require any finer cutting, cutting stomach flaps off the body in order to access the abdomen.

I believe the evidence such as it is supports a contention that the variance in blade descriptions and the skill level variance means that differently skilled men used different knives.

When you consider that with Annie and Kate there is evidence that the killer had little time with the victim after the murder cuts, changing knives based on the application seems very unlikely. Which would suggest that the men who killed the Canonical victims did so with the single weapon they had chosen for the task, a familiar knife, a knife that they would use for their work or to clean a just bagged deer.

Which means that after Annie we might be seeing butchers, hunters, slaughterhouseman skills....something that is not the case in the Chapman evidence.

Cheers

[Errata]

What is that you use a knife hours a day for are you a butcher, a fishmonger, a sushi chef? What size do you estimate the rippers knife was? I was surprised seeing how small the knife was in the Isis decapitation videos, looks real small! Would the ripper use a knife that size? Could the knife used in the rippings be the same size as from the dismemberments? If not what size/type of knife do you think the torso killer used?

Yikes!

I addressed the knife question here http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6708

And it's still generally what I think. Though in the intervening years I took up carving so my knife usage today is about 1000 times more than it was then.

There is a science to cutting, and I address it in the other thread if you guys are interested. But mainly the place I think Phillips screwed up is how knives work horizontally as opposed to vertically. A person standing up who stabs another person standing up generally does so with enough force to drive the blade in about 2/5 of the way in (simplifying the physics here). So if you have a 2 inch stab wound, the blade is 5 inches long. But stabbing a person lying down drives the knife in about 4/5 of the way in. So a 2 inch stab wound lying down comes from a 2.5 inch blade.

Add to that there are no singular stab wounds with bruising ever mentioned. Bruising or indentation means the killers slammed the hilt guard against the wound. It's the surest sign that the blade was completely sheathed in the body, and simply measuring the depth of that wound gives you the blade length. But as best I can tell, there are no such wounds. But I can tell you that a 6-8 inch blade during certain aspects of these attacks would result in carving up the victim's back from the inside. In other words, exit wounds. None are mentioned.

[RockySullivan]

Sure, but where a person becomes proficient with knives and what knives they use are two separate issues.

I have extremely sharp knife skills (sorry. couldn't help it) because I use them for hours every day. But I almost never work with an edge longer than two inches. I can, and have on many occasions used ridiculously long knives to do something in a pinch. I can carve with the tip of a chef's knife if I have to. But you will know it's a knife I'm not used to by the fact that I only use the tip of the knife. And there might be some marring on the surface because I don't have as much control as I'm used to. Which I think these bodies show signs of. But one thing there apparently is not are signs that the weight of the knife used was unfamiliar.

And I think Phillips was WAY off on the knife size. I think he applied the rule of thumb used when both parties are standing and applied it to a horizontal crime. Which doesn't really work.

What is that you use a knife hours a day for are you a butcher, a fishmonger, a sushi chef? What size do you estimate the rippers knife was? I was surprised seeing how small the knife was in the Isis decapitation videos, looks real small! Would the ripper use a knife that size? Could the knife used in the rippings be the same size as from the dismemberments? If not what size/type of knife do you think the torso killer used?

[Rosella]

In your opinion what did the knife Jack use look like and what would have been the actual purpose for such a blade at the time?

Yes, Errata, as a person who uses knives a lot please give us your opinion.

I agree that a person's job wouldn't necessarily correlate to the sort of knife carried around away from work, either to harm others or for personal protection. Nevertheless, the speed at which Jack worked does suggest he followed a trade in which knives were used daily.

[lynn cates]

pointed remark

Hello Errata. Thanks.

OK, I get the point. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[gnote]

Sure, but where a person becomes proficient with knives and what knives they use are two separate issues.

I have extremely sharp knife skills (sorry. couldn't help it) because I use them for hours every day. But I almost never work with an edge longer than two inches. I can, and have on many occasions used ridiculously long knives to do something in a pinch. I can carve with the tip of a chef's knife if I have to. But you will know it's a knife I'm not used to by the fact that I only use the tip of the knife. And there might be some marring on the surface because I don't have as much control as I'm used to. Which I think these bodies show signs of. But one thing there apparently is not are signs that the weight of the knife used was unfamiliar.

And I think Phillips was WAY off on the knife size. I think he applied the rule of thumb used when both parties are standing and applied it to a horizontal crime. Which doesn't really work.

In your opinion what did the knife Jack use look like and what would have been the actual purpose for such a blade at the time?

[Errata]

Hello Rosella. That's true, but Dr. Phillips pronounced knives used in that trade too short.

Cheers.
LC

Sure, but where a person becomes proficient with knives and what knives they use are two separate issues.

I have extremely sharp knife skills (sorry. couldn't help it) because I use them for hours every day. But I almost never work with an edge longer than two inches. I can, and have on many occasions used ridiculously long knives to do something in a pinch. I can carve with the tip of a chef's knife if I have to. But you will know it's a knife I'm not used to by the fact that I only use the tip of the knife. And there might be some marring on the surface because I don't have as much control as I'm used to. Which I think these bodies show signs of. But one thing there apparently is not are signs that the weight of the knife used was unfamiliar.

And I think Phillips was WAY off on the knife size. I think he applied the rule of thumb used when both parties are standing and applied it to a horizontal crime. Which doesn't really work.

[lynn cates]

The name's Bond, Thomas Bond.

Hello Rosella. Thanks.

Presumably, Dr. Bond would have referred to "MJK." He did not see the other women.

Personally, if the knives are described as "different," it is simply grist for my mill.

Cheers.
LC

[Rosella]

Yes, Pizer is no suspect. On the other hand, Dr Bond believed JTR's knife to be about six inches long, pointed at the top, very sharp, and about an inch in width. Would a slaughterman, for instance, have had that sort of knife or use a longer stronger one?

[lynn cates]

short

Hello Rosella. That's true, but Dr. Phillips pronounced knives used in that trade too short.

Cheers.
LC

[Rosella]

Well, of course John Pizer was supposedly a boot finisher and slipper maker, who was used to working with knives.

[Errata]

On the battlefield.
Some of the fastest surgeons came out of the American Civil War, but I take this as only one example. Any war would suffice, and Britain had no shortage of foreign conflicts in the 19th century.

The only trick with a medic is that it would have to be one that had practiced in the previous 3-5 years. You lose muscle memory in a year, and after three years all habitual reactions and skill knowledge go. Within 5 years you are back to laying open your own palm, or punching yourself in the face trying to dislodge a knife from bone.

Leatherwork is a possibility.

[RockySullivan]

On the battlefield.
Some of the fastest surgeons came out of the American Civil War, but I take this as only one example. Any war would suffice, and Britain had no shortage of foreign conflicts in the 19th century.

That's a good point Wickerman I hadnt thought of it. and if you don't have time for a propery surgery... dismember dismember dismember

[GUT]

Someone with medical knowledge is the first logical deduction...but when are doctors/surgeons ever accustomed to working with speed? DRs work slow, cautious with careful precision, in good lighting, at a slow pace. The ripper was clearly used to working incredibly fast, he's all about speed. Could a doctor really work that fast?

On the battlefield.
Some of the fastest surgeons came out of the American Civil War, but I take this as only one example. Any war would suffice, and Britain had no shortage of foreign conflicts in the 19th century.

In fact some surgeons used to brag about how quickly they were able to perform certain surgeries, amputations, appendectomies and cesareans are three that I know I have read accounts of.

[Wickerman]

Someone with medical knowledge is the first logical deduction...but when are doctors/surgeons ever accustomed to working with speed?

On the battlefield.
Some of the fastest surgeons came out of the American Civil War, but I take this as only one example. Any war would suffice, and Britain had no shortage of foreign conflicts in the 19th century.