Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks I was worried how that was going to work. But I do see stranger suggestions from time to time.

And often emanating from the same source. I'd put Mike's latest ruminations - that Mary Kelly was an abandoned torso victim - along the same probability lines as his Stride theorizing. No better no worse.

Yours truly

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

Rather the opposite GUT, that she may have been another Torso intention. I should add that this is for the sake of Devils Advocacy, I personally see more of anger waning into a determined effort to mutilate the abdomen. If I was the Torso guy, it would appear that I probably wasn't involved in a murder that decimates a Torso.

I believe 1 or more Canonical Deaths were creative impressions of what earlier acts were reported as being, but without the skill, knowledge or panache.

Cheers

Thanks I was worried how that was going to work. But I do see stranger suggestions from time to time.

[RockySullivan]

Rather the opposite GUT, that she may have been another Torso intention. I should add that this is for the sake of Devils Advocacy, I personally see more of anger waning into a determined effort to mutilate the abdomen. If I was the Torso guy, it would appear that I probably wasn't involved in a murder that decimates a Torso.

I believe 1 or more Canonical Deaths were creative impressions of what earlier acts were reported as being, but without the skill, knowledge or panache.

Cheers

If Mary was an intended torso...how would he plan to package up the body parts and remove them all at once? I do however think the Kelly crime scene does point to torso being jack as it shows he was working inside and went far beyond the mutilations of the other ripper victims.

[Michael W Richards]

G'day Michael

You're not suggesting that MJK was some sort of stepping stone are you?

Rather the opposite GUT, that she may have been another Torso intention. I should add that this is for the sake of Devils Advocacy, I personally see more of anger waning into a determined effort to mutilate the abdomen. If I was the Torso guy, it would appear that I probably wasn't involved in a murder that decimates a Torso.

I believe 1 or more Canonical Deaths were creative impressions of what earlier acts were reported as being, but without the skill, knowledge or panache.

Cheers

[RockySullivan]

Love the mis-spelling Rocky,

Were they out collecting souls.....?

Lost souls indeed

[Amanda]

Hee, hee..

Now that's a real sharp idea rosella. Would night soul men be collecting at some of the ripper sites like the bathrooms at Mary Kelly's and the yard where Kate eddowes was killed?

Love the mis-spelling Rocky,

Were they out collecting souls.....?

[RockySullivan]

Night soil men. They had carts and were only allowed to work between midnight and five a.m..

Now that's a real sharp idea rosella. Would night soul men be collecting at some of the ripper sites like the bathrooms at Mary Kelly's and the yard where Kate eddowes was killed?

[Rosella]

Night soil men. They had carts and were only allowed to work between midnight and five a.m..

[Amanda]

Well....

Hi Abby , what type of delivery men would be out delivering in the early morning hours?

Hi Rocky,

Dodgy ones, obviously

Amanda

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky
I agree-its perplexing!! I imagine he did it late at night and had access to a cart. And if his occupation required carrying around/delivering/transporting things then that would help obviously.

Hi Abby , what type of delivery men would be out delivering in the early morning hours?

[RockySullivan]

Great point mr B. If torso did use a car or van would he be able to park it and safely enter the vault without being seen? Likewise if torso was a costermongers or some kind of cart salesman who pushed around a cart, could he hide the torso in his cart, then park and it and leave it unattended while he entered the vault?

[Abby Normal]

I think the uterus was removed from torso on Whitehall & Elizabeth Jackson. I'm really curious as to how torso dumped the parts? How did he carry the torsos wrapped up in old jackets or like a parcels. The way the parts were tied up and how may be a clue. But what I really want to know is how? How did the killer sneak into the Scotland Yard basement carrying a torso in an old jacket?

Hi Rocky
I agree-its perplexing!! I imagine he did it late at night and had access to a cart. And if his occupation required carrying around/delivering/transporting things then that would help obviously.

[RockySullivan]

And when? He wouldn't have had access to a Pickford 's van whenever he felt like it.

From whitehall inquest :
Charles William Brown: I reside at 5, Hampton-terrace, Hornsey, and am assistant foreman to Messrs. Grover, at the new police offices, Whitehall. The works are shut off from the surrounding streets by a hoarding about 7ft high.
[Coroner]How many entrances are there? - Three; two in Cannon-row and one on the Embankment. There are gates at the entrances as high as the hoardings.
[Coroner]How long have these vaults been completed? - Three months.
[Coroner]Who was admitted to the works besides workmen? - No one, unless they had business.
[Coroner]Was any one kept at the gates? - No.
[Coroner]So that any person who chose could walk in? - There was no one to prevent them. On Saturdays, all the gates are locked up, except a small-one in Cannon-row.
[Coroner]Is there a watchman there? - No.
[Coroner]Who are left on the premises at night? - No one. The small gate in Cannon-row is secured by a latch, and it is not everybody who can undo it.
[Coroner]Is there any watchman outside? - No.
[Coroner]What were the approaches to the vaults? - A road made of planks laid two abreast. Once down in the vaults it is very dark. The floors have to be laid there and the drains put down. Carpenters were at work there the week before the discovery.
[Coroner]Did you observe anything about the state of the locks on the following Monday morning? - No.
[Coroner]Did they look as if they had been forced? - I did not notice.
[Coroner]Do you think previous knowledge was required to get to the vaults? - Yes, I do. I first saw the parcel about half-past two o’clock on Tuesday afternoon. I had been in the vaults on the Monday, but had not noticed any smell. I was there in the dark. On Tuesday the first witness called my attention to the parcel. He struck a light, and I saw in the corner what looked like an old coat with a piece of ham inside. I procured a lamp, and the parcel was afterwards got out and opened.
By the Jury: Tools have been stolen on the works. I do not think it possible that any one could have lowered the parcel from Richmond-mews.
http://www.casebook.org/official_doc...whitehall.html

Testimony from the assistant foreman, he says he believes previous knowledge was required to gain access to the vault. Who would have had previous access? They say only someone who worked there or had business. It seems like possibly a small pool of people would fit the foremans criteria. Any theories?

[MrBarnett]

I think the uterus was removed from torso on Whitehall & Elizabeth Jackson. I'm really curious as to how torso dumped the parts? How did he carry the torsos wrapped up in old jackets or like a parcels. The way the parts were tied up and how may be a clue. But what I really want to know is how? How did the killer sneak into the Scotland Yard basement carrying a torso in an old jacket?

And when? He wouldn't have had access to a Pickford 's van whenever he felt like it.

[RockySullivan]

Hi rocky
I have often said the same. perhaps, if the torso man and ripper were one and the same, then the dismemberment was done for ease of removal of the body from his place-either work or home.

Perhaps the ripper victims were done in the street at times he could not bring them to his private place, and the torsos, when he could.

I believe Debra has shown that all the torsos had evidence of abdominal mutilations (as did, of course the rippers).

I think the uterus was removed from torso on Whitehall & Elizabeth Jackson. I'm really curious as to how torso dumped the parts? How did he carry the torsos wrapped up in old jackets or like a parcels. The way the parts were tied up and how may be a clue. But what I really want to know is how? How did the killer sneak into the Scotland Yard basement carrying a torso in an old jacket?