Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Hunter]

Hi Jon,

Who knows why the killer did a lot of things? I understand your point about Bond's description of Mary Kelly's rib cage, although considering where the heart is located, the sternum and compactness of the ribs connected to it would still be - to me - an impediment without splitting the breastbone.

All I know is that a large mammal's heart can be removed by circumventing the diaphragm with the knife, firmly grabbing the heart from below with the off hand and cutting the attached vessels with the other while crouched to one side.

In field dressing animals, the windpipe and esophagus are also removed the same way. You just know to cut above where the other hand is placed. Then you simply pull down and out with the off hand.

Maybe everyone wouldn't be capable of doing this, but certain people would. A good piano player doesn't have to look at the keys to hit the right ones.

[Batman]

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...707#post323707

Something you might all be interested in with respect to the stocking cut.

[Wickerman]

"The intercostals between the 4th, 5th & 6th ribs were cut through & the contents of the thorax visible through the openings."

It is a shame Dr. Bond did not clarify whether he meant the ribs on both sides, or just one side. The intercostals is the space between the ribs, apparently muscles & tissue between those ribs was removed (but not between the other ribs?)
If it was not to enable the killer to see into the thorax, then what was the purpose?

Creating holes between the ribs would enable him to see where to sever the heart as he pulls it down towards the bottom of the thorax.

[Hunter]

Yes...

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,



Hunters do it that way all the time. Helps keep debris out of the upper body cavity while dragging the animal out. Done by feel. Piece of cake.

Thankyou Cris.
This scenario though requires our killer to stand by the left side of the bed, reach up/under with one hand and slice the uppermost attachments with the other, while both hands are inside a human ribcage?

A piece of cake?

[Hunter]

Hi Jon,

...The killers (left?) hand will have grasped the heart from below, yes, but there is no way he could have used the knife (in his right hand?) to sever the arteries & attachments from below at the same time...

Hunters do it that way all the time. Helps keep debris out of the upper body cavity while dragging the animal out. Done by feel. Piece of cake.

[gnote]

It's like the ripper had the key to be confident enough to make those severe mutilations

I see what you did there. ;-)

[Richard Patterson]

Rudolf Virchow's new method of autopsy would have been known to Thompson, a ripper suspect, who carried a dissecting, through his mentor at Owens Medical College. This was lecturer of pathology and infirmary director Doctor Julius Dreschfeld.

Virchow first published an English translation of his German book on post-mortem technique, “Die Sections-Technik im Leichenhause des Charité-Krankenhauses,” in 1880 by Blakiston publishers in Philadelphia. Virchow’s book called, “Post-Mortem Examination with especial reference to medical-legal practice” was 145 pages with illustrations. Virchow encouraged that his students adapt to prevailing conditions and applauded the use, like Thompson, of a single scalpel for dissection. In his 1895 3rd edition of his English translation Virchow wrote,

‘It is scarcely necessary top point out that there are many cases in which deviations from this method are not merely allowable, but also absolutely necessary. The individuality of the case must often determine the plan of the examination….“a good pathological anatomist is perfectly able to dissect all the viscera of one subject, or even of two, with one knife’

Virchow also described severing the heart by holding it from below with the left hand,

‘To bring the heart into the right position for the dissection, when the incisions for the right side are to be made, I extend firmly the forefinger of the left hand, and push it under the heart, and keep it against the base, so that the ventricular portion hangs down over the forefinger, which is as a fulcrum to it.’

Respectfully,

[Wickerman]

Both breasts were more or less removed by circular incisions, the muscle down to the ribs being attached to the breasts. The intercostals between the fourth, fifth, and sixth ribs were cut through and the contents of the thorax visible through the openings.

Between the 4th and 5th and 6th ribs would be around the middle of the ribcage. To get to the heart's top would require going between 1 and 2 or 2 and 3, but even 3 to 4, let alone between 4,5 and 6 would be quite a task.

One possibility I could not make allowances for, which might also explain the lower access noted above is, when you grasp at an organ that is essentially out of sight - how much do you pull towards you?
Surely your natural instinct is to pull down so an entry wound lower down in the ribcage may be explained in that way.
How much elasticity is there in these organs, ie; the heart, when you pull it towards you?
(I hope no-one's having supper...)

What I see in JtRs signature is the idea of someone with medical knowledge and a need to de-feminize prostitutes in a lust killing and is able to speedly conducted organ removal due to that applied anatomical experience.

I agree with the 'apparent anatomical knowledge', though I have reservations about surgical experience.
Surely a practicing surgeon would have both?

I'm not sure this killer was so high up the professional scale...

[RockySullivan]

It's like the ripper had the key to be confident enough to make those severe mutilations

[RockySullivan]

How did the ripper know he wouldn't be disturbed? He would have been trapped inside had anyone come with no escape route. It's almost as if he was positive no would be coming, but then why does the landlord send his man to call upon Kelly. What a ghastly sight, god!

[Batman]

Interesting you should say that, Batman, because some years ago we did have a discussion on whether it was a cut or the top of a stocking. Given what you say about the Kelly murder, would you expect Phillips or Brown to have picked up on the student aspect? Bond doesn't seem to have done.

It's not in the report, but neither is any of the other clothing details such as the chemise and there is an absense of the other stocking on the left leg.

However both breasts where removed by circular incision, so circular cutting is something JtR can do. The right thigh was denuded in front to the bone. The part nearest the knee just above the 'stocking part' looks pretty clean and circular to me.

We know she wears clothes in bed but there doesn't appear to be any torn stocking around that elastic part which you can see elsewhere where clothes are torn. In fact the blow-ups look nothing like a stocking top.



That image is like 90% shark attack, but its the 10% remaining that clues us into someone with experience.

The other MJK photograph is taken from the other side of the bed (I have no idea how the photographer managed to get in there) but the circular cut runs around the leg.



If you look at the full photograph of MJK you will notice that the sheets on the bed at the left side lower are up revealing the matress which would happen by someone kneeling there and moving about a lot. So it looks like he was there pulled that leg over, was starting that circular cut (which you could picture him trying to strip and denude to the bone) but stops. Why? Because its awkward. He has to pull that leg over and work at very odd angles with it. So I think we are seeing a preparation marking for a removal that never happened and it looks supiciously like something someone in the medical world would do.

I think in modern times Bond's view that there is no medical training or knowledge is not well received.

[Robert]

Interesting you should say that, Batman, because some years ago we did have a discussion on whether it was a cut or the top of a stocking. Given what you say about the Kelly murder, would you expect Phillips or Brown to have picked up on the student aspect? Bond doesn't seem to have done.

[Batman]

Batman, how long do you think he took? I have seen views ranging from hours to 20 minutes or so.

With Eddowes it took 10 minutes.

I think 5 min. max of those where spent on the kidney and the other 5 min. on the rest. The point is the greater portion or at least half of that attack would have spent on obtaining the kidney.

With Kelly he may have been able undress so as not to get blood on his sleeves because that removal of the heart that way isn't something you do without getting a lot of red on your lower arms I would think.

He spent a few minutes burning clothes so may have added his own shirt.

So aside from the time spent getting her into bed and time spent burning clothes, I would estimate 10 minutes for the general mutilations and 5-10 max minutes getting to the heart. So 20 minutes + 10 for in and out and I say he did everything from entering to leaving in under 30 minutes max.

Do you notice that Mary Kelly's right lower leg has a perfect circular knife wound running around so it looks like the top of a stocking or something? That sort of pre-marking before cutting is found in surgery such as amputations.

[Robert]

Batman, how long do you think he took? I have seen views ranging from hours to 20 minutes or so.