Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[lynn cates]

sketch

Hello Batman. Thanks.

The sketch seems accurate. If her attacker is at her right, his face would be TOWARD the houses and he would be facing Mitre st. So his back would be AWAY from the square.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"This position with Eddowes places JtRs back to the wall so he has full frontal view of Mitre Square."

Eh?

Cheers.
LC

Sorry I should have said full view of most of the NE entrance.



From what I understand, in the NW corner of Mitre Square the body was found with the left side near a drain and a wall. Her head wound have been in the direction of the other wall, NW, and her feet pointing SE while her right side is exposed to the square.

If JtR where at her feet he would be facing this corner and have to look hard left and back a bit to see down the square to see someone coming. He would have no chance of seeing someone coming from the NE entrance which is behind him to the right from this position.

The better position would have been on her left side. Then he would see all of the square but not the NE entrance much. He obviously didn't choose left because working from the left is not the position he wants to be in.

Being on her right allowed him to have his back to the SE but a view of the NE passage which would have been his escape route but also the route where the beat officers would stand a better chance of seeing him in the dark.

From my understanding, there where two beat officers near this murder and one of them (PC James Harvey I think) could have simply walked a few meters forward with his light and revealed JtR in the middle of his deeds but his beat and light didn't go that far. Yet if we estimate the times, JtR must have been there with eddowes.... but I need clarification on this.

[Wickerman]

I think the only type of person who could realistically answer the question of anatomical knowledge would be a surgeon or maybe a surgeon who actually trains people to be surgeons as he would see first hand the attempt of a novice.

Which is exactly who/what Prosector was.
Have you read his(?) posts on the subject?

[pinkmoon]

I think the only type of person who could realistically answer the question of anatomical knowledge would be a surgeon or maybe a surgeon who actually trains people to be surgeons as he would see first hand the attempt of a novice.

[lynn cates]

orientation

Hello Batman. Thanks.

"This position with Eddowes places JtRs back to the wall so he has full frontal view of Mitre Square."

Eh?

Cheers.
LC

[Scott Nelson]

In a nutshell, what occupation(s) and/or experience is needed?

He wasn't afraid to use a knife.

[Errata]

Hi Errata, all

In a nutshell, what occupation(s) and/or experience is needed?

I can't really answer that. There are a number of was any single thing could have been done. Each of which has different requirements. If he knew exactly where a uterus was by feel, he had to have surgical experience. Whether on the living or dead. If he found the uterus through the vaginal canal, then all he needed was rudimentary anatomical knowledge.

He had knife skills, but they didn't have to be gained through occupation. On the other hand he was not so skilled as to maintain perfect control over the blade, so I doubt a butcher or doctor. But maybe that was adrenaline, so it could be a butcher or doctor. I would think a butcher would do things differently than how Jack did it, but that assumes that the cutting is a means to an end, and not an end itself and I can't say that.

He has to be smart, skilled, confident and lucky. How or why he was any of those things is totally up for grabs.

I have reasons for thinking he was not a butcher or a doctor, but I can't exclude either from having done this. But if I can narrow down the weapons used, I might get a better handle on it.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Errata, all

In a nutshell, what occupation(s) and/or experience is needed?

[Batman]

Hello batman. Thanks.

Your reply addresses intestines. I thought uteri were the point?

Is it possible that he were not stationary during the whole time?

Cheers.
LC

The point is what all the evidences suggests. The explanation has to encompase the lot.

If you look at Eddowes and imagine JtR kneeling by her right elbow you can see that he has placed another organ part with his right hand on his right side. Also by her left elbow is another organ part. This was likely placed with the left hand over her.

This position with Eddowes places JtRs back to the wall so he has full frontal view of Mitre Square.

The drapping of intestines is to get them out of the way.

[lynn cates]

moving

Hello batman. Thanks.

Your reply addresses intestines. I thought uteri were the point?

Is it possible that he were not stationary during the whole time?

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Forgot marksmanship. He didn't have the right rifle for starters.

In otherwords.... you didn't match his score either.

[Harry D]

This is a bit like Lee Harvey Oswald deniers who say he couldn't have shot JFK yet none of them, not one achieved his marksmanship scores in military exams.

Forgot marksmanship. He didn't have the right rifle for starters.

[Batman]

Interesting observation batman, I recently was think mortuary attendants or someone who works in the morgue might help if any organs are removed? Would the coroner take organs out for autopsy? Possible someone who worked around dead bodies and as you say watched while operations were performed...on dead bodies...perhaps or living? Who is someone standing to the side that would observe surgical procedures that remove abdominal organs?

I think we are looking at surgical procedures more than autopsy.

Partial nephrectomy and whole nephrectomies can be done to a patient and they can live with 1 or 2 kidneys (with one missing a bit) after. The same goes for a hysterectomy. The patient will live. In both cases they are medical interventions to save lives/ease suffering. So in these instances we are looking at a medical student (maybe even post-grad) who is observing/shadowing those performing the operation. I think its less likely to be a nurse or an assistant who turns up now and again to clean up, take stuff away, bring stuff etc.

[RockySullivan]

A nephrectomy is done usually from the person's side. This is because the kidney's are located under the rear ribs. So the person is rarely ever lying on their back during this procedure. If you wanted to plan to smash and grab someone's kidney, you would probably find doing it while they are lying on their front is easier.

In JtR's murders his procedure are done on the front. So they kidney wasn't planned, IMO, but was done because he had enough time after performing the hysterectomy.

The interesting thing though is that the hysterectomy was done while JtR may have been at their right side, not between their legs.

What this suggests to me is the following...

JtR has anatomical experience, but not as the surgeon performing the procedure but as someone 'standing to the side' of the procedure, like a medical student or a nurse, aiding in the procedure. Therefore when JtR killed he subconsciously positioned himself as he would have done in the medical theatre, from the side, not the front.

Interesting observation batman, I recently was think mortuary attendants or someone who works in the morgue might help if any organs are removed? Would the coroner take organs out for autopsy? Possible someone who worked around dead bodies and as you say watched while operations were performed...on dead bodies...perhaps or living? Who is someone standing to the side that would observe surgical procedures that remove abdominal organs?

[Batman]

Hello Batman.

"The interesting thing though is that the hysterectomy was done while JtR may have been at their right side, not between their legs."

Why? He may have been at the side to cut the throat, but why the extraction at the side?

Cheers.
LC

The placement of intestines, in both Chapman and Eddowes case, suggest he was at their side and moving the organs from right to the left. In Chapman's case, if he was down at the bottom he would have to lift/throw the intestines over the whole of her body to place them beside her head. That would be extremely messy as he would be practically making contract with his body and hers doing that. The case for JtR being at the side is more compelling though with Eddowes because he placed one set of intestines over her shoulder and the other is severed completely and placed on her left side. Both intestines are parallel with her body. This means horizontal placement from the side, rather than vertical placement from below is more likely. Placing these vertically would be too awkward. Horizontally while at the side is easier. So it is more likely JtR did this while at their side.

which is easier?

BTW - "Easier" doesn't mean the correct medical position to be in.