Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Rosella]

Thanks Wickerman. Interesting! I just wonder though whether, if Jack was a butcher whether he could have picked up such knowledge from buying second hand medical books explaining these procedures. If he wasn't a surgeon or medical student he could be someone using a knife in his daily life and able to kill horses or pigs quickly. A self employed butcher for instance might experiment on them in that way before proceeding to humans.

[Wickerman]

There are other trades that use knives of course, but surely a butcher, slaughterman or hunter, someone used to a layout of a mammalian body, would be quite expert in removing organs, especially if they'd worked in those areas for many years? The very fact that doctors at the time were in two minds about whether the killer had anatomical skills says something about it, doesn't it?

It's a bit more than that though Rosella. Prosector explained the tendency for a surgeon to skirt around the bellybutton, rather than slice directly through, and the reason why. Something that doesn't occur to a butcher, hunter or slaughterman.
This is the page:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=267052&postcount=81

You might also be interested to read this:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=267004&postcount=57

[Rosella]

There are other trades that use knives of course, but surely a butcher, slaughterman or hunter, someone used to a layout of a mammalian body, would be quite expert in removing organs, especially if they'd worked in those areas for many years? The very fact that doctors at the time were in two minds about whether the killer had anatomical skills says something about it, doesn't it?

[GUT]

How much difference is there between animal bodies and human ones? (That sounds stupid) but would someone with a knowledge of skinning and dressing, say deer, be able to apply that knowledge to a human body? Where to find the various organs and so on.

Best wishes
C4

A pig is very similar in many ways.

[Sam Flynn]

How much difference is there between animal bodies and human ones? (That sounds stupid) but would someone with a knowledge of skinning and dressing, say deer, be able to apply that knowledge to a human body? Where to find the various organs and so on.

The internal layout is very similar, so - in broad terms - the answer would be "yes". Not a stupid question at all, C4

[Harry D]

If someone pushed me into a dark alleyway with a corpse, threw me a knife and told me I had five minutes to extract a major organ or they'd kill my family, squeamishness aside I'd probably make a right dog's dinner out of it. I can't see why some of the medical men thought the killer was a layman... unless there was an ulterior motive.

[curious4]

Hunters

How much difference is there between animal bodies and human ones? (That sounds stupid) but would someone with a knowledge of skinning and dressing, say deer, be able to apply that knowledge to a human body? Where to find the various organs and so on.

Best wishes
C4

[Wickerman]

I don't know how far past the first post you have ventured Sleuth, but if you read Prosector's posts up to, I think, the first five pages, you should find that 'new evidence' that might change your mind.

[Sleuth1888]

OK

Just to take a general point first. The killings (except the last) were done in semi-darkness, on the ground, in just a few minutes. To do complex things like extracting a kidney or a uterus in that time and under those circumstances takes exceptional skill and anatomical knowledge. Even George Bagster Phillips said that he doubted that he could have extracted Annie Chapman’s uterus in less than quarter of an hour and that a surgeon might have taken ‘the best part of an hour.’ The point that he could do it faster than most surgeons no doubt reflected the fact that he had nearly 30 years’ experience of carrying out autopsies.

For the benefit of anyone that hasn't had both hands inside a human abdomen before, simply getting at either the kidney or the uterus is incredibly difficult. You might know roughly where they are but the problem is you have a mass of slippery, writhing intestines in the way and as much as you try to push them aside, the more they flop back into the middle and down into the pelvis which is where you need to be if you wish to get at the uterus.

What you have to do is a manoeuvre known to surgeons, anatomists and pathologists as mobilisation of the small bowel. This involves making a slit in the root of the mesentery which lies behind the bowels and this then enables you to lift the small intestines out of the abdomen and gives you a clearer field. Jack did this in the case of Chapman and Eddowes (hence the bowels being draped over the right shoulders). Dividing the root of the mesentery single handed is very difficult since you are operating one handed and blind. Usually an assistant wound be using both hands to retract the guts so that the operator can get a clearer view of it.

That's probably enough for one post - see what I mean about needing a few hours?

Prosector

My own view (subject to change on account of new evidence ) is that the Ripper had no notable anatomical or medico/surgical knowledge whatsoever.

It's not so hard to imagine that, using the slash and grab method, the Ripper would have chanced upon the organs (namely uterus and kidney) eventually. After his frenzied ripping it's easy to see how he could have just picked up or selected an organ at random and walked off making his escape.

[DJA]

Reckon the Providence Row one concerning Mary Kelly is spot on.

[GUT]

Are there any oral histories from Whitechapel during the period of 1870-1910? Perhaps a request to the London library archives?

Lots of oral histories. the question is how reliable are they.

[DJA]

Are there any oral histories from Whitechapel during the period of 1870-1910?

Yes. Not written down though.

One concerned a "doctor" who supplied paedophiles with sedatives.

[DJA]

Sounds good to me, the newbie.

George Bagster Phillips lived at Spital Square.

Hutchinson had a child in his "care" at one stage. The parents lived in Primrose Street.

Extensions of Hanbury Street.

[Rosemary]

Oral History

Are there any oral histories from Whitechapel during the period of 1870-1910? Perhaps a request to the London library archives?

[Rosemary]

I like that too

Perhaps a pathologist who worked in Whitechapel and walked home late at night along Hanbury Street.

Sounds good to me, the newbie.