What's your profile for Jack?

[Observer]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

P.S. You might want to take a break from Casebook for a while and catch up on your sleep. You seem to be doing a lot of yawning.

Indeed, a spot of sheep counting is in order!

[lynn cates]

good game

Hello Patrick. Thanks. (He was in Grove Hall.)

Not bad--might strike Kidney.

I think you have identified why many are loath to abandon "JTR"--too good a game.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

repetition

Hello CD. Thanks.

"They have always been described as prostitutes even by the police at the time. I have to assume that there is a reason for that."

Of course. Just like there was a reason for suspecting Druitt, Kosminski, Tumblety and Klowsowski as "JTR."

"You might want to take a break from Casebook for a while and catch up on your sleep. You seem to be doing a lot of yawning."

Excellent idea. Repetition leads to boredom; boredom, to sleepiness. Perhaps after that break I'll return and find the JTR nonsense replaced by something serious.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.


Excellent idea. Repetition leads to boredom; boredom, to sleepiness. Perhaps after that break I'll return and find the JTR nonsense replaced by something serious.

Cheers.
LC

I don't think that is going to happen, Lynn. You might be better off trying to start your own website. You know, sort of a bizzaro Ripper website where no one believes in Jack. Of course for starters it might just be you and Michael. Still at one time people believed the world was flat so don't give up hope.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

Erastosthenes

Hello CD. Thanks.

Of course, there were those who believed otherwise--who were familiar with and understood the work of Erastosthenes.

Then, too, many believed it flat simply because they had done no research. It LOOKED flat and so they accepted the story of others, without critical examination.

All too familiar.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

Hate to but in, but you know I can find no proof that people ever thought the earth flat, so they mustn't have. So There.

[Tom_Wescott]

I think that Lynn answered the above Tom already, but as Ive said numerous times, the only 2 Canonicals we know were soliciting were Polly and Annie.....

Hi Mike. With all due respect, there's what you know and then there's what I know. As for Stride, she had a police record for prostitution. We technically don't "know" that any of them were prostituting, but there's an equal chance..and a very good one...that all of them were.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Not against? Impossible to determine. Being against a thing and forced to be subjected to it at the same time is very possible. Yes it makes logical sense, but logic is just a tool that can be wielded to suit its master. Given her past and at the time current scenario, it is not infeasible she would take such a course of action. It could be argued anyone might. Problem is we have no really good data to suggest she was or had been prostituting herself anytime around that time. Although, it wouldn't have been terribly an unlikely possibility. I wonder if Stride and Eddowes were not dissimilar. Both had "men" in the mix. I wonder at the dynamic their relationships might have taken on given particular circumstances. Kidney gets about hanged by some whilst Kelly seems to go unscathed. I wonder if it might not should be viewed oppositely. Kelly the pimp instead of Kidney. Kelly checked Eddowes close for money. Kidney got drunk and angry and wanted to do something about it. People express grief differently of course. Wow, I meandered toward tangent land. Shutting up now.

Good post. When it was decided by the Ripperati 20 years ago that the case needed "new views" in order to move forward, instead of doing better research they simply fiddled with what they had and decided to create a devil out of Michael Kidney and an angle out of John Kelly. Of course, in order to pin the Stride murder on Kidney, lies and sloppy research were put forth. In order to make a saint out of John Kelly, much had to be overlooked. But until the old books are replaced by new and better ones these myths will persist and will remain a thorn in the side of many of us.

As for the similarity of Eddowes and Stride, they both lived on the same street for 6 years (aside from the short periods Stride lived away with Kidney). They both would have eaten at the same shops, drank at the same pubs, bathed at the same facilities, and I'm pretty certain they worked at the same place (though not together).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tji]

Hi Lynn

[QUOTE]

Hello Tracy. Prior convictions? For D & D, yes. If you have any about soliciting, I'd be delighted to see it. There is a story about one such, but I have yet to see the source.

I personally don't have any, no, however given that there was a record from the time of her being registered as a prostitute, then I have to err on the side that she had a record for being a prostitute. Why would someone at the time lie about this, and I am sure if it weren't true then she would have had something to say about it!

Occasional prostitution to feed the children? May not apply to Liz.

Doss money, drink money, money for clothes etc.

Out late at night? Many women are. Not sure that makes them prostitutes?

No it doesn't, however put it all together and it does point in that direction.
If I find an animal in the street that looks like a dog, barks like a dog, and vet records say it is a dog, does that make it a cat?

Tracy

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"If it looks like a rose. . ."

Or was it a geranium? Perhaps a dahlia? And the fern--maidenhair or asparagus? See what I mean?

I think it is pretty certain it is a flower. That was what I was getting at.

"There is evidence to support the fact she had prostituted before."

Yes, aged 16 and in Sweden. When I was 16 I was very anti-intellectual--posh toffs, not down to earth.

Your parallel is too inexact to be useful.

"Not sure cleaning alone would be sufficient to support her if she was in the clutches of a binge portion of a cycle."

Do we know she was a binge drinker?

No, not for certain of course, but we do have a source that supports the notion of her going off due to drink. The validity of the claim can't be substantiated. I refuse to disregard it without something fairly solid. Not enough data exists to warrant that.

"We are not certain of the specifics of anything other than a woman was out late on the street possibly seen with multiple men that evening."

Indeed. So why not suspend at that point, or perhaps do a double flow chart?

Given the very little factual data and the unsubstantiated stuff as well we are only left to assumption. Which is fine so long as it isn't forgotten how far, or not so far, the hard data goes. Balance of probabilities. Reduce the field down as best as possible and work from there. Given all that, Stride soliciting herself is well within reason. That does not however make it the only or most probable scenario. Question: If evidence surfaced that proved Stride did engage in prostitution at that time, would you be surprised?

Cheers.
LC

Eh, you know the innerworkings of this stuff better than I. So I guess I'm just trying to keep you honest. So you can help keep me honest. Always a pleasure.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Patrick

So of the six (expanded from 5 just because) victims we'd have something like this?

Tabram = angry customer (soldier?)
Nichols = Jacob Isenschmid
Chapman = Jacob Isenschmid
Stride = Michael Kidney (?)
Eddowes = ?
Kelly = Hutchinson or Barnett

I've said this before, since we know so little, it sounds as good as anything else. I'm troubled that in order to make the theory work we have to discount completely the contemporary policework and assume it was almost completely incompetent.

A final note: I'd suggest that there WAS a Jack the Ripper even if he only killed Nichols and Chapman! It's just too good a name to abondon completely.[/QUOTE]

Tabram- I can deal with that.
Nichols-Works
Chapman-Works
Stride-Unless I am completely mistaken, Kidney had an alibi. So no.
Eddowes- If the assumption is that Nichols and Chapman's killer was incapable of committing the act on Eddowes then we are left with a big question mark indeed. Really muddles things up.
MJK-Barnett also had an alibi and was cleared by the police so no. Hutchinson however is not so clear so okay possibly.

Yes great name but possibly irrelevant.

[lynn cates]

record

Hello Tracy. Thanks.

"I personally don't have any, no, however given that there was a record from the time of her being registered as a prostitute, then I have to err on the side that she had a record for being a prostitute."

If it is recorded once that one was a prostitute, one has, ipso facto solo, a record as a prostitute. I spent 13 years as a dustman--so I have a record as a dustman. But I haven't done that kind of work for many years.

"Why would someone at the time lie about this. . .?"

Lie? Who said anything about a lie? Too many eggs in the pudding.

"Doss money, drink money, money for clothes etc."

Very well. But this does not sound like desperation.

"No it doesn't, however put it all together and it does point in that direction."

All? What is the "all" under discussion?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

big picture

Hello DLDW. Thanks. Yes, many questions remain. Still trying to get the big picture.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

key

Hello (again) DLDW. You are wise to omit Kidney. You are entirely right, however, to be puzzled by Eddowes--I think she is the key to unlocking this puzzle.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Think you might have missed some stuff do to my lack of fonts. Anyways I'll ask the question here.

If it were proven that Stride did engage in prostitution would you be surprised by that?