What's your profile for Jack?

[lynn cates]

analogy

Hello Tracy. Thanks.

Although that was an inept example, permit a response. If I had not worked for some years and were standing by a dustbin, there is, believe me, only one answer--I seek food.

When I worked at that trade there was MUCH good food discarded by various shops, etc.

Now, can you kindly inform me what analogy this has to Liz Stride and soliciting?

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

I hope Tracy forgives me for jumping in.

Although that was an inept example, permit a response. If I had not worked for some years and were standing by a dustbin, there is, believe me, only one answer--I seek food.

Inept? You are a card, Lynn.

So you`d just go through the bins looking for food even though you could earn some cash in hand working the bins?
What about your doss money ?

When I worked at that trade there was MUCH good food discarded by various shops, etc.

Again, you are imposing your 21st Century view on Victorian London.
Do you think you would find much food waste in the bins of Victorian London ?

You queried Stride living with Kidney in squalor.
Firstly, she`d broken up with Kidney at the time of her murder, and she was living in the common lodging houses of Spitalfields. This equals squalor, Lynn.
Even when she was with Kidney she was in and out of workhouses and receiving help off the Church who described her as poor, and poor in that area at that time has a different meaning to today.

Can you kindly inform me what analogy this has to Liz Stride and soliciting?

I thought you introduced the analogy of Stride and her history of prostitution and your past as a binman?

[lynn cates]

keeping centuries straight

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"What about your doss money?"

Doss money? NOW who's conflating centuries? By the way, I know of plenty of such places to sleep--gratis.

"Do you think you would find much food waste in the bins of Victorian London?"

Really, how did we get to Victorian London? I thought your silly example had to do with MY supposed actions--and all in a futile attempt to predict Liz's behavior? Surely LIZ was by no dust bin?

"I thought you introduced the analogy of Stride and her history of prostitution and your past as a binman?"

I was trying to emphasise that one CAN change occupation. I suppose the force of that observation is lost on you?

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

I was trying to emphasise that one CAN change occupation.

Cheers.
LC

Of course one can.

We don't know if Stride was soliciting. Looking at her record, we know it happened in her youth, but surely ANY woman who could get a job off the streets would take it in a heartbeat. But we also know from the experiences of Unfortunate women in Victorian London that prostitution was a fairly common fallback position. A woman may work as maid or in a shop, but if he child goes to the hospital, she may walk the streets for a few nights to pay for it. There were no margins. Everyone was on the edge of ruin, everyone was skirting disaster, and there was no cushion.

She may have stayed out of it for years. Decades. But the slightest misfortune could have put her back on the streets soliciting. For her it would have been a known quantity. And if her need was great, there was no shame in it. It would explain why she was out at that time of night, if not where she was. In the end I'm not sure it matters whether she was soliciting or not. But it's not an unreasonable assumption. It is however, just an assumption.

[lynn cates]

brackets

Hello Errata. Thanks.

"In the end I'm not sure it matters whether she was soliciting or not. But it's not an unreasonable assumption. It is however, just an assumption."

Quite. That is why I have suggested elsewhere to put that in brackets.

I daresay, however, we won't. Too much interest in that and all the rot about posing.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'Day Errata

I don't dispute that there was a chance she was soliciting. however you also said:

It would explain why she was out at that time of night,

However a study of 1880's East End shows people out on the streets at all hours.

One Ripper witness, talks about being out to but supper at about 1:30 am, the Doss House kitchens were turned out at between 1:00 and 2:00, people looking for day work were known to head out at 4:00 am to seek a days labor.

I'm not saying that you are but we need to make sure that we don't fall into the trap of applying today's standards to a different time and place.

[GUT]

As a slight aside, pubs close about midnight, supper at 1:00 or so, up to look for work at 4:00, where did they get time to create the size families that were common in the 80's.

[lynn cates]

pastime

Hello GUT.

"where did they get time to create the size families that were common in the 80's?"

I recall a line from the song where a dustman married at 86--"It's just to pass the time." (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'Day Lynn

I guess no TV or internet either, most could barely read and books were hellishly expensive.

[tji]

Hi Jon

I hope Tracy forgives me for jumping in.

No worries at all, you seem to be so much better at portraying what I want to say anyway, so seems best for everyone involved

Inept? You are a card, Lynn.

Aw come on Lynn, you may disagree with Jon but I wouldn't call it inept.

Also I see that you could someone can change their occupation but can quite easily will go back to what you know when circumstances dictate.

Tracy

[lynn cates]

De Analogia

Hello Tracy. Thanks.

"Aw come on Lynn, you may disagree with Jon but I wouldn't call it inept."

It has nothing to do with disagreement. It has to do with:

1. fittingness (aptness) of analogy

and

2. method of comparison

The dustbin example was acceptable; however, what was NOT analogically acceptable was going beyond a reversion to former occupation and suggesting someone else's take on the matter. That was a logical fallacy.

"Also I see that you could . . . change [your] occupation but can quite easily . . . go back to what you know when circumstances dictate."

Indeed. So Liz could have gone back to Kidney, given her circumstances? In fact, she had done that before.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

If that was what you meant by your analogy then it was a poor analogy, and not really applicable to Stride.`s situation.

Whether or not she could have gone back to Kidney is iirrelevant, the fact is she didn`t, hence she was murdered.

[lynn cates]

ruled out

Hello Jon. Thanks.

So possibilities are ruled out since they didn't happen? Very well, I have said Liz was possibly soliciting. So let's rule that out.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

On what grounds would you rule soliciting out ?

[lynn cates]

memory

Hello Jon. Thanks.

I wouldn't. I was merely trying to adopt your criterion about possibilities.

Have you changed it again or had you forgotten your own reply?

Cheers.
LC