What's your profile for Jack?

[lynn cates]

not surprising

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

No. And if she were soliciting when she died, I should not be surprised. But then all those blokes were different men and all of them clerkly.

But perhaps she preferred older men who were scholars?

Cheers.
LC

[Patrick S]

Patrick

So of the six (expanded from 5 just because) victims we'd have something like this?

Tabram = angry customer (soldier?)
Nichols = Jacob Isenschmid
Chapman = Jacob Isenschmid
Stride = Michael Kidney (?)
Eddowes = ?
Kelly = Hutchinson or Barnett

I've said this before, since we know so little, it sounds as good as anything else. I'm troubled that in order to make the theory work we have to discount completely the contemporary policework and assume it was almost completely incompetent.

A final note: I'd suggest that there WAS a Jack the Ripper even if he only killed Nichols and Chapman! It's just too good a name to abondon completely.

Tabram- I can deal with that.
Nichols-Works
Chapman-Works
Stride-Unless I am completely mistaken, Kidney had an alibi. So no.
Eddowes- If the assumption is that Nichols and Chapman's killer was incapable of committing the act on Eddowes then we are left with a big question mark indeed. Really muddles things up.
MJK-Barnett also had an alibi and was cleared by the police so no. Hutchinson however is not so clear so okay possibly.

Yes great name but possibly irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

Kidney did have an alibi. So did Barnett, I believe. The list was more a question to Lynn. I find her argument intruiguing, if not - at this point - wholly convincing. I have a hard time attributing the murder of Eddowes to anyone other than the killer of Chapman and Nichols. There are too many similarities and, as far as I'm aware, no plausible alternative suspects. As well, I'm not ready to exclude Kellly. I do think the prostitution angle is a bit overblown. The killer(s) preyed on women who were on the streets at a certain time of night/morning. Obviously, many women around at that time would be selling themselves.

[Jon Guy]

If it is recorded once that one was a prostitute, one has, ipso facto solo, a record as a prostitute. I spent 13 years as a dustman--so I have a record as a dustman. But I haven't done that kind of work for many years.

So, if we ever hear that you have been out for work for a number of years, living from day to day in squalor and living with no means of support, and someone then spots you at 6am standing near the dustbin collection point on collection day we should assume you were on a date ?

[Observer]

Bravo Jon. Proof of Liz Stride's financial situation is reflected in the assistance she received from the Swedish Church On September 15th and 20th of 1888. Kidney was out of her life from the 25th of September, it's little wonder she took to the streets on the 29th/ 30th of that month.

Regards

Observer

[Jon Guy]

PRECISELY, Observer
If only we could have got a message to Stride telling her not to hang around dark entrances at night as her type was EXACTLY what the Ripper was looking for.

[tji]

Hi Lynn

If it is recorded once that one was a prostitute, one has, ipso facto solo, a record as a prostitute. I spent 13 years as a dustman--so I have a record as a dustman. But I haven't done that kind of work for many years.

I have to go with Jon's answer here Lynn, especially as it is such a good one.

Lie? Who said anything about a lie? Too many eggs in the pudding.

Sorry you lost me with this. Not sure what you exactly mean.

"Doss money, drink money, money for clothes etc."

Very well. But this does not sound like desperation.

Ever seen a woman clothes shopping?!
I guess it depends on your definition of whether or not you have no money for drink or a bed as desperation?

All? What is the "all" under discussion?

The points I put forward in earlier posts were the 'all'.

Tracy

[lynn cates]

nice speech

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Squalor? Kidney was that bad?

But if I ever need an emotive speech writer . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Tracy. Thanks.

You may go with whatever you like. Answer? Did not see one.

I have NEVER suggested the police lied. Why should they? They had very old information.

Cheers.
LC

[Lechmere]

One of Stride's friends told a newspaper that she was a prostitute. We are not just relying on the Swedish record.
The police were also aware that she was a prostitute. I doubt that was because the Swedish authorities had passed the information on.
Also let's be aware that about 20 newspapers reported that Iscensmidt's brother came forward and gave him an alibi several days before the 'Double Event' and while Iscensmidt was in Grove Hall.

[Observer]

Par for the course, coming up short again

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Squalor? Kidney was that bad?

But if I ever need an emotive speech writer . . .

Cheers.
LC

Not much of an answer to your excellent analogy Jon.

[Paddy]

Sheffield Evening Telegraph Friday 12th October 1888

Hi Lynn I was wondering if any of this was connected to Isenschmidt do you think?

The police on examination found that the murdered womans husband was a much older man than the individual now detained, and without sending for Catherine Eddowes sister they let the man go.
The police have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now an inmate of the Eastend infirmary, who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances

Pat..............................................

[lynn cates]

no interest

Hello Pat. Thanks.

Doubt it. I agree with Sugden, Evans and Rumbelow. After the "Double Event," Isenschmid was no longer of interest to the Met.

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike. With all due respect, there's what you know and then there's what I know. As for Stride, she had a police record for prostitution. We technically don't "know" that any of them were prostituting, but there's an equal chance..and a very good one...that all of them were.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I'm not certain why you have taken a confrontational position in virtually every response to a post Ive made recently Tom, particularly when it is clear to both parties that you essentially agreed with my statement....that we dont know what the women were doing at the time they met their murderers. What youve decided not to accept though are the virtual confirmations about what Polly and Annie were doing that came from their own mouths,...Polly had been "earning" and drinking it away, and Annie had to pull herself together to "earn" her doss. Its pretty clear that those 2 were indeed soliciting.

Again, that has to be factored into the profile of at least their killer...choosing strangers to kill by posing as clients to street girls actively soliciting. If we dont have an excuse for the man to lure the women into a quieter place, then why would the women accompany a stranger into the dark....during that Fall in particular.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

One of Stride's friends told a newspaper that she was a prostitute. We are not just relying on the Swedish record.
The police were also aware that she was a prostitute. I doubt that was because the Swedish authorities had passed the information on.
Also let's be aware that about 20 newspapers reported that Iscensmidt's brother came forward and gave him an alibi several days before the 'Double Event' and while Iscensmidt was in Grove Hall.

I believe the friend told reporters that he believed when she couldnt find regular work she did what she had to do to survive. Thats an Unfortunate by classification, not a prostitute. Besides, we have evidence that she was indeed getting regular work up until her death, charwoman work, just like the work she performed her last day.

The Unfortunates who get regular work dont need to sell themselves, so your premise is either that she enjoyed that work.....which would be countered by the fact that while a registered prostitute in Goteborg she applied to be stricken from those records due to finding decent work as a nanny.....or that you imagine the money she earned through her regular work was insufficient for her needs,...which would be countered by the fact that she was paid 6d to clean a few rooms that day....more than what was needed for "doss".

Cheers

[tji]

Hi Lynn

You may go with whatever you like.

Why thanks for your blessing on the matter

Answer? Did not see one.

Jon quite competently countered your dustman/prostitute argument 2 poss previously, that is the answer I was alluding to.

I have NEVER suggested the police lied. Why should they? They had very old information.

I have NEVER said that you did say they lied, I was answering your post requesting proof of prior conviction of prostitution.

Tracy