The Absence Of Evidence

[Wickerman]

It's the cinematic trope where a person asked for their name by an official will glance around the office, spy a poster, newspaper ad, or book title, and take inspiration from that. Like Ian Fleming's bird book by a James Bond.

Is that really what we have here?, Schwartz voluntarily gave a statement to police.

I recall another witness placed the start of his story at 2:00am, and someone on here said 2:00 was used in a story about the victim in a weekend paper, and they argued that "he must have got the time from that article".
The same witness was then accused of using a description "well-dressed man" in his story because the same phrase appeared in another story over that same weekend.
I'm not following the logic here.

Do witness statement have to be lies because the same adjective, phrase or surname appears in print a few days prior to the witness being interviewed?
Aren't these same words in use every day by everyone?

[Wickerman]

I assumed you read about what happened to the girl? Or even Lipski for that matter? Seems like there is enough rationale for an aggrieved Jewish activist to make a point to the police. Again, just a theory.

Yes, it's not the first time I've read that story.
I didn't know the date when I first read it, I recall asking if she could be a relative. We know how families try to stick together in a foreign country.
I think it first surfaced on Howards Forum, someone was looking for Schwartz a few years back.

Other suggestions were made, that because Schwartz means black the family could have changed their name to Black, making their discovery so much more difficult.

[Wickerman]

You need to start with a record we know to be accurate for the person you are looking for, and like MJK, this falls down pretty much at the first hurdle for Schwartz. You mention 22 Ellen Street. Swanson actually had 22 Helen Street, Backchurch Lane, in his case notes. The Star paper says Backchurch Lane. I think it's a false address.

Do you have a reason to think the address is false?
When I look at reports I don't normally question them without a reason. Back in the day it was quite normal for the post office to promote a two-street address, it helped their delivery service. In some cases there were two streets with the same name, so referencing the nearest larger road helped distinguish one Ellen-street from another.
I'm not suggesting this was the case with Ellen-street, it was just a general approach. The public were conditioned to write two streets like 22 Ellen-street, Backchurch Lane.
Just referring to someone by one of the two streets would not be out of the ordinary.

I don't believe The Star ever interviewed him, but likely did get the address from a source in the police.

Same question - what causes you to think the Star did not interview Schwartz?
And, I would be shocked if the police handed out personal information about a witness. If they put a witness in danger by such careless actions they would have the pants sued off them.

Then there is a railway arch that never existed....

The railway arches ran across the south end of Backchurch Lane.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Using a combination of Israel Lipski's first name and Sarah Schwartz's surname was a subtle reminder to the police of their own prejudices towards the local Jewish community (rightly or wrongly). Even throwing in Lipski's name as a slur was a nice touch from my perspective. This is all just theory.

I've heard this type of reasoning before. I wonder why someone has to see a name in a newspaper for the idea to take hold "I could use that as a pseudonym".
What is the rationale behind the need to see a name in print before it will be used as a false name by an intruder?

Isn't the primary issue here, not how the club or a man who gave the name Israel Schwartz might have arrived at a pseudonym, but rather if the name was in fact a pseudonym?

What person on record is currently regarded as the most likely to have been our Israel Schwartz?

When someone can conclusively draw a red line between the so-called Israel Schwartz the witness, to any other Israel Schwartz, I'll be keen to review the information.

How rare is this situation of not being able to positively identify an individual? Are most of the characters on Berner street or any of the other murder scenes fully accounted for, or is the case of Schwartz fairly typical?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The railway arches ran across the south end of Backchurch Lane.

I don't think that is "the" railway arch, owing to the Echo report...

... about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., ...

I think it is implied that this mysterious chase went in the opposite direction to Backchurch Lane. I say 'mysterious' because once again we are told of unknown members of the public who witness a Schwartz related incident, who never seem to be identified. This in spite of Wess supposedly being told the name of one of the men!

[erobitha]

Yes, it's not the first time I've read that story.
I didn't know the date when I first read it, I recall asking if she could be a relative. We know how families try to stick together in a foreign country.
I think it first surfaced on Howards Forum, someone was looking for Schwartz a few years back.

Other suggestions were made, that because Schwartz means black the family could have changed their name to Black, making their discovery so much more difficult.

It is completely feasible the family anglicised their surname, but you would imagine we could find something solid on this Israel Schwartz in the records somewhere prior to the name change?

It is also totally feasible he avoided being on any records we presently have access to as well.

All I can do is theorise until actual primary source evidence should appear.

[erobitha]

I don't think that is "the" railway arch, owing to the Echo report...

... about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., ...

I think it is implied that this mysterious chase went in the opposite direction to Backchurch Lane. I say 'mysterious' because once again we are told of unknown members of the public who witness a Schwartz related incident, who never seem to be identified. This in spite of Wess supposedly being told the name of one of the men!

This the arch I was referencing.

[erobitha]

Isn't the primary issue here, not how the club or a man who gave the name Israel Schwartz might have arrived at a pseudonym, but rather if the name was in fact a pseudonym?

What person on record is currently regarded as the most likely to have been our Israel Schwartz?



How rare is this situation of not being able to positively identify an individual? Are most of the characters on Berner street or any of the other murder scenes fully accounted for, or is the case of Schwartz fairly typical?

I haven’t researched all those present at Berner Street but do you have a complete list of those individuals? We know of a few people such as Leon Goldstein being there, but I am not aware there was a full list ever available of who the police questioned that night? They were there for many hours. Enough time to get the backs up of a few patrons I would say who already feel maligned.

I’d be interested to know if there are any copies of the newspaper that was printed there available to read in English? My hunch is that local Jewish persecution would have been a regular theme.

Tracing people without a verifiable primary source link is always tricky and it is harder to do with common names particularly, but Israel Schwartz was not a common name. If he was called David Cohen, we would have too much information and in those cases you whittle down using a process of elimination.

I always look at the why. Why would Israel Schwartz give a statement that implicated a drunk gentile might have been the murderer, especially when confronted with bigots too. Sense of duty? Duty to who or to what?

Then, we have his statement which makes very little sense and none of it can be corroborated by any other witness in any way.

The witness who wasn’t.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I haven’t researched all those present at Berner Street but do you have a complete list of those individuals? We know of a few people such as Leon Goldstein being there, but I am not aware there was a full list ever available of who the police questioned that night? They were there for many hours. Enough time to get the backs up of a few patrons I would say who already feel maligned.

I don't have a complete list. D-I Reid referred to there being 28 people locked inside the gates, who were questioned and searched. Reid's list of 28 might make for a useful thread.

I’d be interested to know if there are any copies of the newspaper that was printed there available to read in English? My hunch is that local Jewish persecution would have been a regular theme.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/elizabeth-stride/6778-arbeter-fraint-s-take#post6778

Tracing people without a verifiable primary source link is always tricky and it is harder to do with common names particularly, but Israel Schwartz was not a common name. If he was called David Cohen, we would have too much information and in those cases you whittle down using a process of elimination.

Perhaps a process of elimination would work with Schwartz

I always look at the why. Why would Israel Schwartz give a statement that implicated a drunk gentile might have been the murderer, especially when confronted with bigots too. Sense of duty? Duty to who or to what?

Possibly the club, possibly a person. How the club (assuming a link) would have persuaded him is difficult to understand. It would have been quite different to the persuasion that Leon Goldstein required to go to the police station with Wess. So perhaps he did it for a person. There are only a few possibilities...

[Wickerman]

I don't think that is "the" railway arch, owing to the Echo report...

... about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., ...

I think it is implied that this mysterious chase went in the opposite direction to Backchurch Lane. I say 'mysterious' because once again we are told of unknown members of the public who witness a Schwartz related incident, who never seem to be identified. This in spite of Wess supposedly being told the name of one of the men!

Yes, but that is not what Swanson wrote, you are using a different press account that refers to Deimshutz & Kozebrodski running for a policeman.
They did run east along Fairclough street that is true, but Schwartz ran "as far as the railway arches", which probably means he ran passed his house and just kept running to the end of Backchurch Lane.

[erobitha]

Yes, but that is not what Swanson wrote, you are using a different press account that refers to Deimshutz & Kozebrodski running for a policeman.
They did run east along Fairclough street that is true, but Schwartz ran "as far as the railway arches", which probably means he ran passed his house and just kept running to the end of Backchurch Lane.

Weren’t those arches knocked down a couple of years earlier John? I’m pretty sure someone posted about that.

[rjpalmer]

Weren’t those arches knocked down a couple of years earlier John? I’m pretty sure someone posted about that.

The railway arches were knocked down years earlier?

Where do you think the Pinchin Street torso of 1889 was discovered, under an oak tree?

[erobitha]

The railway arches were knocked down years earlier?

Where do you think the Pinchin Street torso of 1889 was discovered, under an oak tree?

Good one RJ!

It doesn’t matter anyway. Either he ran passed where he lived or he wasn’t heading home at all.

[Wickerman]

Weren’t those arches knocked down a couple of years earlier John? I’m pretty sure someone posted about that.

I just pulled up the 1890 map, the railway tracks are still running over the south end of Backchurch Lane.

[erobitha]

I just pulled up the 1890 map, the railway tracks are still running over the south end of Backchurch Lane.

I am corrected on that point so.