The Absence Of Evidence

[Wickerman]

You put in parentheses that Issacs was in fact Issac Kozebrodski, Louis didnt say that, he said Issacs,...

Yes I did, trying to help you, but as usual you brush it aside and continue with your own beliefs.
Forget the times Michael, it is the sequence of events that are important.

Here, the Morning Advertiser...
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up."

Times.
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski returned with Diemsschütz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up."

Evening News.
"The next person in importance to Eagle, on whose information we may look forward to getting a clue to the perpetrator of these outrageous crimes is Isaac M. Kozebrodsky. Kozebrodsky was born in Warsaw, and can only speak English very imperfectly. His information, which we are obliged to give very shortly, is this: "I came into the club about which you are asking me at half-past twelve o'clock. Shortly after I came in Diemschitz asked me to come out into the yard,"

Diemshutz discovers the body, he goes into the club and returns to the yard with his friend, Kozebrodski - thats all there is to it.

Kozebrodski then says about Diemshutz:
"So I came out with him and he then pointed out to me a stream of blood, which was running down the gutter in the direction of the gate, and flowed from the gate to the back-door. The blood in the gutter extended to between six and seven yards. I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one."

Diemshutz says:
"..A member named Isaacs went down to the yard with me, and we struck a match and saw the blood right from the gate up the yard. Then we both went for the police,.."
Morning Advertiser.

This is what Eagle said:
"After I had been in the club 20 minutes the steward came in and said there was a woman lying in the yard. I went down into the yard and saw the blood, and afterwards assisted to find the police."
Morning Advertiser.

Both Diemschutz and Kozebrodski ran east along Fairclough St. to Grove, on their way back they brought Spooner who had been standing outside the Beehive pub on the corner of Christian St.

Spooner:
"After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street, and into Dutfield's yard,.."

Spooner also says:
"...I put my hand under her chin when the match was alight."

Diemshutz said:
"As I returned a man whom I had met in Grove-street, and who had come back with me, lifted up the deceased's head"

Diemshutz, Kozebrodski & Spooner all returned to Berner St.
However, Kozebrodski continued up Berner St. to Commercial Rd, only Diemshutz & Spooner entered Dutfields Yard. At some point Kozebrodski meets Eagle.

Diemshutz said:
"There was another of the Club, named Eagle, who also ran out to get a policeman. He went in a different direction to the others, and found two officers somewhere in Commercial-road."

Kozebrodski says:
"Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me, and they sent for a doctor."
Evening News.

PC Lamb said:
"I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me. I went towards them and heard them say, "Come on! There has been another murder."

One of the men was Eagle, the other seems to have been Kozebrodski.

From this it is apparent that the Secretary Story of a chase involved Diemshutz & Kozebrodski, both looking for a policeman along Fairclough St.
Diemshutz & Kozebrodski left the yard, but it was Diemshutz & Spooner who returned.
Kozebrodski continued up Berner St. to find a policeman in Commercial Rd.
Wess thought the two men who came back were the same as the two who left which is why he told the reporter the second man involved in the chase was not a member of the club.

[GBinOz]

Yes I did, trying to help you, but as usual you brush it aside and continue with your own beliefs.
Forget the times Michael, it is the sequence of events that are important.

Here, the Morning Advertiser...
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up."

Times.
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski returned with Diemsschütz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up."

Evening News.
"The next person in importance to Eagle, on whose information we may look forward to getting a clue to the perpetrator of these outrageous crimes is Isaac M. Kozebrodsky. Kozebrodsky was born in Warsaw, and can only speak English very imperfectly. His information, which we are obliged to give very shortly, is this: "I came into the club about which you are asking me at half-past twelve o'clock. Shortly after I came in Diemschitz asked me to come out into the yard,"

Diemshutz discovers the body, he goes into the club and returns to the yard with his friend, Kozebrodski - thats all there is to it.

Kozebrodski then says about Diemshutz:
"So I came out with him and he then pointed out to me a stream of blood, which was running down the gutter in the direction of the gate, and flowed from the gate to the back-door. The blood in the gutter extended to between six and seven yards. I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one."

Diemshutz says:
"..A member named Isaacs went down to the yard with me, and we struck a match and saw the blood right from the gate up the yard. Then we both went for the police,.."
Morning Advertiser.

This is what Eagle said:
"After I had been in the club 20 minutes the steward came in and said there was a woman lying in the yard. I went down into the yard and saw the blood, and afterwards assisted to find the police."
Morning Advertiser.

Both Diemschutz and Kozebrodski ran east along Fairclough St. to Grove, on their way back they brought Spooner who had been standing outside the Beehive pub on the corner of Christian St.

Spooner:
"After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street, and into Dutfield's yard,.."

Spooner also says:
"...I put my hand under her chin when the match was alight."

Diemshutz said:
"As I returned a man whom I had met in Grove-street, and who had come back with me, lifted up the deceased's head"

Diemshutz, Kozebrodski & Spooner all returned to Berner St.
However, Kozebrodski continued up Berner St. to Commercial Rd, only Diemshutz & Spooner entered Dutfields Yard. At some point Kozebrodski meets Eagle.

Diemshutz said:
"There was another of the Club, named Eagle, who also ran out to get a policeman. He went in a different direction to the others, and found two officers somewhere in Commercial-road."

Kozebrodski says:
"Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me, and they sent for a doctor."
Evening News.

PC Lamb said:
"I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me. I went towards them and heard them say, "Come on! There has been another murder."

One of the men was Eagle, the other seems to have been Kozebrodski.

From this it is apparent that the Secretary Story of a chase involved Diemshutz & Kozebrodski, both looking for a policeman along Fairclough St.
Diemshutz & Kozebrodski left the yard, but it was Diemshutz & Spooner who returned.
Kozebrodski continued up Berner St. to find a policeman in Commercial Rd.
Wess thought the two men who came back were the same as the two who left which is why he told the reporter the second man involved in the chase was not a member of the club.

Hi Jon,

I am in agreement with your scenario up to Diemshitz and Koze (AKA Issacs) viewing the body. After that I would, with respect, suggest that your hypothesis has a timing problem. Diemshitz says that he went to find a PC and Eagle went in another direction and found a PC in Commercial Road. The time taken for Koze to leave and return with Diemshitz is greater than that required for Eagle to get to Lamb in Commercial Road, particularly when Diemshitz was interrupted by both Spooner and Harris. Koze, using the singular "I", says he immediately left to find a PC in Fairclough, but failed, and eventually found a PC in Commercial Road. Neither Eagle nor Koze state that they left with the other. Diemshitz also testified that he arrived back at the yard with Spooner at the exact time that Eagle arrived with Lamb. Koze can't have been arriving at the yard with both Diemshitz and Eagle when Lamb arrived.

The way I see it is, Diemshitz sends Koze out, and follows shortly after with Jacobs. Eagle departs, headed for Commercial Road. Koze goes into Fairclough and then up Batty St, runs into Eagle on the corner of Commercial and Batty, and they spot Lamb to the east on Commercial Road. Diemshitz and Jacobs continue along Fairclough to Grove and then turn back, encountering Spooner and Harris on the return trip. Diemshitz and Spooner return to the yard as Eagle and Koze arrive with Lamb. Jacobs is not mentioned at this stage, but it would be my guess that he continued looking for a PC in the area where they encountered Harris, and it was he that informed Collins of the situation.

JMO.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I am in agreement with your scenario up to Diemshitz and Koze (AKA Issacs) viewing the body. After that I would, with respect, suggest that your hypothesis has a timing problem. Diemshitz says that he went to find a PC and Eagle went in another direction and found a PC in Commercial Road. The time taken for Koze to leave and return with Diemshitz is greater than that required for Eagle to get to Lamb in Commercial Road, particularly when Diemshitz was interrupted by both Spooner and Harris. Koze, using the singular "I", says he immediately left to find a PC in Fairclough, but failed, and eventually found a PC in Commercial Road. Neither Eagle nor Koze state that they left with the other. Diemshitz also testified that he arrived back at the yard with Spooner at the exact time that Eagle arrived with Lamb. Koze can't have been arriving at the yard with both Diemshitz and Eagle when Lamb arrived.

Hi George, thankyou.
There's a couple of timing issues actually, but you're right in some quotes it is difficult to separate Eagle leaving the yard from Diemshutz & Kozebrodski leaving - did they leave at the same time, but in different directions?

I'm still putting this sequence together - a work in progress.

Here we have Diemshutz saying when he and Spooner returned, Eagle arrived back at the same time.

"I passed several streets without seeing a policeman, and returned without one. As I returned a man whom I had met in Grove-street, and who had come back with me, lifted up the deceased's head, and then for the first time I saw the wound in her throat. Just at that time Eagle, a member of the club, and the constables arrived."
East London Observer.


After searching along Fairclough St. we have Diemschutz, Kozebrodski & Spooner returning to Berner St., but only Diemshutz with Spooner entered the yard, Kozebrodski continues up Berner St. and finds Eagle.

Kosebrodski says:
"I afterwards went into the Commercial-road, along with Eagle, and found two officers".
Evening Standard

The Evening News writes:
"Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me, and they sent for a doctor."

PC Lamb said two men came running towards him in Commercial Rd, so Kozebrodski must have found Eagle before they met the PC.

All I can think of at the moment is, that Diemshutz & Spooner, after returning to the yard, spent more time looking over the body (Spooner lifting her chin), than they thought, 2-3 minutes would be enough to allow Kozebrodski time to run up to Commercial Rd. where Eagle was.
Which means Eagle didn't return 'at the same moment', but after several minutes?

Which suggests Eagle may not have left the yard initially at the same time as Diemshutz, but minutes later.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You’re not playing the game Fiver.

Yes his is. Arguing endlessly with Michael Richards on positions that haven't changed in years, is indeed the game.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes I did, trying to help you, but as usual you brush it aside and continue with your own beliefs.

Which begs the question ...

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

The way I see it is, Diemshitz sends Koze out, and follows shortly after with Jacobs. Eagle departs, headed for Commercial Road. Koze goes into Fairclough and then up Batty St, runs into Eagle on the corner of Commercial and Batty, and they spot Lamb to the east on Commercial Road. Diemshitz and Jacobs continue along Fairclough to Grove and then turn back, encountering Spooner and Harris on the return trip. Diemshitz and Spooner return to the yard as Eagle and Koze arrive with Lamb. Jacobs is not mentioned at this stage, but it would be my guess that he continued looking for a PC in the area where they encountered Harris, and it was he that informed Collins of the situation.

JMO.

Cheers, George

Hi again George.

I see a notable lack of references to anyone called Jacobs, other than the one you brought my attention to.
I can see you interpret the sequence differently, but have you attempted to assemble a sequence of quotes to support your theory?

I am assembling press quotes that provide a sequence, regardless of what time it was. To my mind it is the sequence that matters, and unless there is a character missing, the complete sequence of press quotes must tell the story.

[GBinOz]

Hi again George.

I see a notable lack of references to anyone called Jacobs, other than the one you brought my attention to.
I can see you interpret the sequence differently, but have you attempted to assemble a sequence of quotes to support your theory?

I am assembling press quotes that provide a sequence, regardless of what time it was. To my mind it is the sequence that matters, and unless there is a character missing, the complete sequence of press quotes must tell the story.

Hi Jon,

I prefer to think that I have developed a theory based on an examination of the quotes and a solution to the conundrums.
The problem with Koze coming back to the yard before going to the Commercial Road is that Eagle would have had to depart with him at the same time. Otherwise Eagle would have found Lamb before Koze caught up. If we start from the time when the search parties are leaving the yard, both Eagle and Koze consistently use the singular "I". In the quote where Koze does mention Eagle, it is almost as an afterthought. After the despatch time Diemshitz doesn't mention being with Koze, and vice-versa. When Diemshitz mentions the return of Eagle with Lamb he isn't using a time estimate - there's not much room for error in "at the same moment". However, reports have been show to be inconsistent, so perhaps there exists a report that contradicts Diemshitz's "at the same moment", but I am not sufficiently dissatisfied with my theory to warrant my searching for something that may not exist. There is also the possibility that Eagle at first turned left from Berner St into Commercial Road before returning to bump into Koze after the latter had returned to the yard. However, had this been the case one would think that Eagle might have run into Smith proceeding along Commercial Road in an easterly direction towards Berner St. I am learning that lately my memory is not to be relied on, but I seem to recall seeing a list of club members that included Jacobs.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

George.

I found a quote from the Times, 3 Oct. where Spooner says he arrived at the yard, and stood beside the body for about five minutes before the first constable arrived - PC Lamb.

Which means Eagle, Kozebrodski, PC Lamb and another constable all arrived together about five minutes after Spooner arrived.
Which conflicts with Diemshutz saying Eagle arrived just after he did.
"Just after" must mean about five minutes after, which fits the sequence better.

The question still remains if Eagle left the yard at the same time as Diemshutz, or possibly a few minutes later (I suspect).

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I am learning that lately my memory is not to be relied on, but I seem to recall seeing a list of club members that included Jacobs.

IWEC members - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I prefer to think that I have developed a theory based on an examination of the quotes and a solution to the conundrums.
The problem with Koze coming back to the yard before going to the Commercial Road is that Eagle would have had to depart with him at the same time. Otherwise Eagle would have found Lamb before Koze caught up. If we start from the time when the search parties are leaving the yard, both Eagle and Koze consistently use the singular "I".

When a witness is asked, especially in a court, what did you do? The answer should always be in the singular "I", if you ever go to a court you will see that played out.
A witness will be told not to tell me what anyone else did, I want to know what you did.
Giving a statement to a journalist is no different, you should always say "I".
You may be asked if there was anyone else with you, so that is when you say who or how many - otherwise it's "I", is the correct response.

As for Eagle, yes there is a time loss somewhere, but we don't know which way he ran on reaching Commercial Rd. Perhaps he went west, then turned back to run east, back past Berner st., where Kozebrodski catches him, and on towards Grove St. where they meet PC Lamb & the 2nd PC.

In the quote where Koze does mention Eagle, it is almost as an afterthought. After the despatch time Diemshitz doesn't mention being with Koze,

Diemshutz repeatedly says "we" after first saying he met up with Kozebrodski.

If you look back at post 471 you will see.

(Louis Diemshutz)
"One of the members named Isaacs came out with me. (meaning - Isaac Kozebrodski)
We struck a match,.....
we saw a stream of blood flowing right down to the door of the club.
We sent for the police without delay....
we had some difficulty in finding one.
A man called Eagle, also a member of the club, went out to find a policeman; and going in a different direction to what we did,

Diemshutz & Kozebrodski went one way, along Fairclough, while Eagle went a different way.

So Diemshutz does mention Kozebrodski going with him.

I still don't see any Jacobs..

[GBinOz]

George.

I found a quote from the Times, 3 Oct. where Spooner says he arrived at the yard, and stood beside the body for about five minutes before the first constable arrived - PC Lamb.

Which means Eagle, Kozebrodski, PC Lamb and another constable all arrived together about five minutes after Spooner arrived.
Which conflicts with Diemshutz saying Eagle arrived just after he did.
"Just after" must mean about five minutes after, which fits the sequence better.

The question still remains if Eagle left the yard at the same time as Diemshutz, or possibly a few minutes later (I suspect).

Hi Jon,

Well done. I'm not surprised. This always seems to happen (Just when I thought I had all the answers, they changed all the questions).

Your quote in your previous post had "Just at that time Eagle, a member of the club, and the constables arrived.". Are you calling this "Just after" or have you found another report?

Of course you still have the dilemma of deciding whether you prefer Spooner's statement over that of Diemshitz because it better suits your case. Just kidding.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As for Eagle, yes there is a time loss somewhere, but we don't know which way he ran on reaching Commercial Rd. Perhaps he went west, then turned back to run east, back past Berner st., where Kozebrodski catches him, and on towards Grove St. where they meet PC Lamb & the 2nd PC.

Eagle does seem to be the weakest link in the reconstruction process. Perhaps he was the most emotionally affected by the murder, and as a consequence having the least objective recall of the police search. Yet who can blame him, having been the one to toss Stride out of yard, 20 minutes earlier? From the Arbeter Fraint:

Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!” “Why are you waking her?” asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. “Don’t you see that the woman is dead?”

A man in denial?

[GBinOz]

Hi Frank,

Astute observations, as always.
Lamb testified:
Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder." I asked where, and as they got to the corner of Berner-street they pointed down and said, "There." I saw people moving some distance down the street. I ran, followed by another constable - 426 H.

A few questions present themselves.
Whose job was it to determine that it was one o'clock and release the fixed-point officer?
Did the release conclude that officer's shift resulting in him departing?
When Eagle and Koze spotted Lamb, was the latter headed towards the fixed point officer, or was he headed west after reaching the fixed point and turning around to resume his beat?
Since Lamb testified he didn't have a watch, one might draw a conclusion that a clock was visible from the fixed point or that 426H had a watch.
Lamb testified that he was followed by 426H. Did 426H have to wait to follow as it was not yet one o'clock? If it was after one o'clock, why was 426H still in place at the fixed point? Was it so close to one o'clock that he hadn't had a chance yet to leave?

My conclusion is that, either way, it was very close to one o'clock (police time) when Lamb responded to Eagle and Koze. I do also note that Diemshitz said that, after the discovery of the body, it took a long time to find a PC. Wess nominated that time interval to be 15 minutes.

I am confident that you will have some logical comments to present on the above, as usual.

Best regards, George

Hi Frank,

This appears to address some of my questions. Lamb at the Inquest:
[Coroner] When you were found what direction were you going in? - I was coming towards Berner-street. A constable named Smith was on the Berner-street beat. He did not accompany me, but the constable who was on fixed-point duty between Grove-street and Christian-street in Commercial-road. Constables at fixed-points leave duty at one in the morning. I believe that is the practice nearly all over London.

So Lamb was headed west towards Berner St and the fixed-point officer was still on duty when Lamb was found, so this event was before he went off duty at one oclock (Police time).

Best regards, George

[FrankO]

Hi George,

A few questions present themselves.
Whose job was it to determine that it was one o'clock and release the fixed-point officer?

According to poster Monty (Neil Bell) that was the section sergeant’s job. They were in charge of sections within which the beat officers would patrol, as well as the fixed-point officers. They would march their PC’s out on duty, patrol their section so to render assistance when required and then march them back in at the end of their duty. He would essentially round up all the men in his section at change over and he would be the man with the watch.

However not all divisions employed this system. Some would send a reserve out to round the men up.

Also, it was common for fixed points to be located near public time pieces.

According to Monty there was a huge clock in Commercial Road near to Berner Street. I myself have discovered there was a church, St. Augustine’s Church, between Settles Street and Parfett Street, the latter being almost opposite the corner of Commercial Road and Grove Street, where officer 426 H was on fixed-point duty. What I haven’t been able to discover, though, is whether it had a clock or not.

Some versions of Lamb’s inquest testimony, however, give the impression that the fixed-point officer wasn’t fetched by a section sergeant, but just left/ceased their duty/came off duty at one am.

He was quoted as stating that “the constable at fixed-point duty … came off duty at one a.m.” and that “The man on the beat then has to do his duty.” In another version he stated “He (PC Smith) did not accompany me, but the constable who was on fixed-point duty between Grove-street and Christian-street in Commercial-road. Constables at fixed-points leave duty at one in the morning. I believe that is the practice nearly all over London.” And yet another quoted him as saying “All the fixed-point men ceased their duty at 1 a.m., and then the men on the beats did the whole duty.

So, I have to admit that it’s not clear whether PC 426 H’s duty had already ended or not when he came following Lamb.

Did the release conclude that officer's shift resulting in him departing?

See above.

When Eagle and Koze spotted Lamb, was the latter headed towards the fixed point officer, or was he headed west after reaching the fixed point and turning around to resume his beat?

This is the one that you found the answer to already.

Since Lamb testified he didn't have a watch, one might draw a conclusion that a clock was visible from the fixed point or that 426H had a watch.

See my reply to your first question.

Lamb testified that he was followed by 426H. Did 426H have to wait to follow as it was not yet one o'clock? If it was after one o'clock, why was 426H still in place at the fixed point? Was it so close to one o'clock that he hadn't had a chance yet to leave?

Any answer would be speculating, George. Perhaps the most likely scenario would be one in which it was so close to one am that he could leave without having to expect any problems from his senior.

My conclusion is that, either way, it was very close to one o'clock (police time) when Lamb responded to Eagle and Koze. I do also note that Diemshitz said that, after the discovery of the body, it took a long time to find a PC. Wess nominated that time interval to be 15 minutes.

Having worked out a sequence of comings & goings regarding the Berner Street murder and having looked into timings, I don’t think it was very long before Lamb was found.

If we’d go by what we have in evidence, then by Blackwell’s timing Lamb arrived at the scene with Eagle, Kozebrodski and PC 426 H at between 1:04 and 1:06. Assuming that Diemshutz did, in fact, discover Stride close to 1:00, then I wouldn’t call some 4 to 6 minutes “a long time”, although, seeing there was much commotion, confusion going on with quite probably a lot of adrenaline pumping in all those present, I can imagine very well that it would have seemed a long time.

But apart from Lamb’s timing, also the timing apparently furnished by the Leman Street station of when information of the crime reached them was put “at ten minutes past 1 o’clock” goes very well with Blackwell’s timing. Of course, this information was given to them by Eagle. The police station was some 510 meters or 1700 ft from Dutfield’s Yard. If Eagle would have walked there at a slow pace of 2.91 miles or 4.68 km per hour, then it would have taken him about 6 and a half minute to arrive at the station. So, Eagle would have left the crime scene at the very least some minutes after 1 am.

I am confident that you will have some logical comments to present on the above, as usual.

I hope I've not betrayed your confidence, George!

The best,
Frank

[Michael W Richards]

The way I see it is, Diemshitz sends Koze out, and follows shortly after with Jacobs. Eagle departs, headed for Commercial Road. Koze goes into Fairclough and then up Batty St, runs into Eagle on the corner of Commercial and Batty, and they spot Lamb to the east on Commercial Road. Diemshitz and Jacobs continue along Fairclough to Grove and then turn back, encountering Spooner and Harris on the return trip. Diemshitz and Spooner return to the yard as Eagle and Koze arrive with Lamb. Jacobs is not mentioned at this stage, but it would be my guess that he continued looking for a PC in the area where they encountered Harris, and it was he that informed Collins of the situation.

JMO.

Cheers, George

Thats very close to what I think happened George. Its also sustained by witness statements. What isnt clear to most though is.....if Diemshitz didnt even arrive until 1 or just after 1, then summoned people to help, then sent out people like Issac and Eagle to seek help, then went himself...how much time would all that take? 10 minutes,... conservatively? That puts the return of these men at around 1:10. Which is the time Johnson is there. Then how does Lamb see Eagle seeking help just before 1?