The Absence Of Evidence

[Herlock Sholmes]

This relates to the ongoing debate concerning the murder of Elizabeth Stride. We have two conflicting viewpoints.

Firstly, that because there was no physical evidence of the killer being interrupted (skirts raised, legs spread etc) we should assume that the killer didn’t intend to mutilate his victim and so as a result we should dismiss Stride as a ripper victim.

The second viewpoint is that if the killer was interrupted just as he cut Stride’s throat and then stopped (because of Diemschutz arrival) and had no further contact with the body then we could expect no evidence of an intention to mutilate to have existed.

I have to point out that it isn’t being suggested that Stride definitely was a ripper victim only that the possibility exists. Evidence of interruption might have existed of course if the killer had been interrupted after he’d lifted her skirts for example but that not what is being suggested. What is being suggested is that the killer might have been interrupted just as or just after he’d cut her throat and that consequentially we cannot expect evidence of interruption to have existed.

I see that Michael has voted. 19-1 now

[c.d.]

Or that he was paranoid from the minute he stepped into the yard but the desire to kill overcame his better judgment.

c.d.

[Fiver]

Isn't there something about the Jewish day, it begins & ends at noon. Not midnight like the west?
But this may vary with different types of Jews.

The Jewish day begins at sunset. So Shabbat (Sabbath) is from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

As I see it, there is nothing strange about Schwartz's proposed move.

It's Saturday. It's the end of the week, and it's also the end of the month. That's when people normally move if they are paying rent on a week-to-week or month-to-month basis. They don't want to get stuck paying extra.

The obviously implication is that the Schwartz's were moving at the end of the week/month, but there were complications. Maybe the house they were moving into hadn't been vacated yet, or there was some other hold-up.

Either way, Schwartz still had work or had other important business to attend to, away from the area, and couldn't be in contact with his wife on Saturday. So, away all day, he didn't know whether she had been able to make the move or not. Nothing at all unusual in that. People worked long hours.

The only clue we get regarding Schwartz' activity during the day, is from the Star report:

It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane.

Which is curiously vague. So one more to the list of Israel Schwartz unknows; where did he work, and in what role?
The only clue we get regarding that, is from his reported appearance at Leman street station:

This foreigner was well dressed, and had the appearance of being in the theatrical line.

Bizarre! Did Bram Stoker have the appearance of being in the theatrical line, or just that of a regular middle-class man?
So what is going on Schwartz? Was he a particularly flamboyant character, or had he perhaps come straight from stage rehearsals, with no time to take his stage dress and makeup off?
Or maybe something else entirely; it was a deliberate attempt to disguise his normal appearance.

Now it's 1 a.m. and Schwartz is walking down Commercial Road, wanting to go home...but he doesn't know where home is. Did his wife make the move or not? He doesn't know.

Despite the common wisdom, I strongly suspect that Schwartz's "new" lodgings were a good distance away. Aldgate? Or was it the other direction Limehouse? Or Mile-End?

Again, we don't know, but not wanting to walk all that way unnecessarily, Schwartz decides to first stop by his "old" lodgings in case his wife hadn't been able to make the move.

These were at 22 Ellen Street. Yes, he turned onto Berner Street, but that was only to get from Commerical Road to Ellen Street, which was just south of Berner.

But, of course, he ran into Jack the Ripper and the rest is history.

In any event, the proposed move was evidently delayed. That's why Swanson still lists Schwartz's address as 22 Helen Street [Ellen Street] at the time of his interview on Sunday night. He was still at his old lodgings.

It's even possible that Schwartz then moved away, and was lost in the bureaucratic shuffle. "**** happens," as they say, and the best witness the Met had was AWOL.

The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.

P.S. You mentioned "Sarah Schwartz" of 22 Back Church Lane. Unfortunately, she was almost certainly not related to Israel Schwartz. She came to the UK alone, was headed to America, and had no friends or relatives in London. I am fairly certain she sailed to America a few months after her horrific ordeal, though I still need to confirm it. The 22 Back Church Lane address was long gone by 1888, so it could not be associated with Schwartz.

I only quoted from Bromley's article, for the benefit of anyone not sure who erobitha was referring to.

Here is an interesting question regarding Schwartz' real address, or at least his whereabouts on October 1.
Is the address given to the police - 22 Ellen street - compatible with the Star report...?

He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them. A Star man, however, got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane.

That is, is Backchurch Lane the same as Ellen Street, for all intents as purposes?
Looking at a post by Chris Scott, apparently not. https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...s-no-2#post502
Consider the following addresses...

Cohen 34 Backchurch Lane
Goldstein 7 Brunswick Street Ellen Street
Rosenberg Ellen Street

It seems Brunswick Street is regarded as 'hanging off' Ellen Street, but Ellen Street does not 'hang off' Backchurch Lane - it is a 'standalone' street.
Thus it would seem that the Star man really did run Schwartz to Earth on Backchurch Lane, and not Ellen Street.
So how did he obtain this alternate address?

[jerryd]

After researching a man by the name of Marks Rubenstein, I have a different view on all things "Lipski", so to speak. Rubenstein was the brother in law of Phillip Lipski of Batty Street. Rubenstein was also involved in the Sarah Schwartz case, by the way. If anyone is interested in more on him, I can include a link to what research I found on him. I don't want to clutter up this thread too much.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Please, go ahead Jerry ...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ok I am confused here. If Schwartz never existed who was it that Abberline interviewed and who was Swanson referring to in his report?

c.d.

A man who had given Abberline that name

[NotBlamedForNothing]

If it makes you feel better, I, too, am an outcast, because I strongly suspect that Schwartz was not lost in the shuffle, and the true answer is this: the police deliberately kept him from the inquest. Illegal, or pushing the envelope? Yes, but here in the U.S. you would get wealthy if paid a dollar every time the police & prosecution kept a witness from the defense, and this is not even a trial, but a coroner's inquest. At least the late, great Phil Sugden was willing to accept this as one possibility. "Perhaps they [the police] considered his testimony so important that they wished to keep the details secret." (p 202)

As discussed very recently, the throw down incident was mentioned at the inquest. I am certainly not the first to have noticed this. However, I may be the first to have noticed the second reference to the Schwartz incident. It's subtle, but it's there.

Seems entirely reasonable to me. The police were being embarrassed by all these murders, but here was a man who saw one of the victims physically assaulted. No witness mentioned in the MEPO/Home Office files is discussed more than Israel Schwartz. They are still arguing about him and analyzing the meaning of his account in early November.

The idea that he was discredited seems like a poor and convenient excuse to eliminate a witness that is harmful to so many pet theories, including my own.

Was the Home Office aware that Schwartz had not attended the inquest?

[c.d.]

A man who had given Abberline that name

Ok. So he does actually exist but the argument is over his real name, correct?

c.d.

[jerryd]

Please, go ahead Jerry ...

These two threads are related.

Marks Rubenstein - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
Assault on Mrs. Lipski - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ok. So he does actually exist but the argument is over his real name, correct?

c.d.

In superficial terms, yes

[NotBlamedForNothing]

These two threads are related.

Marks Rubenstein - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)
Assault on Mrs. Lipski - Jack The Ripper Forums - Ripperology For The 21st Century (jtrforums.com)

Fascinating research, although I'm getting a not authorized for the second link.

Now to Israel Schwartz. Israel was stated to be of theatric appearance. I'm wondering if he was an amateur actor possibly working for Rubenstein's Russian National Club or the Hebrew Dramatic Club? Was he in fact related to Sara Schwartz that Gary posted about? There may be more to the shout of "Lipski" than we think?

Love ya work, Jerry!

[Trevor Marriott]

Has anyone considered the following, that the female seen being thrown to the ground was not Liz Stride. If that were the case then that might explain why he was not called to give evidence.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Darryl Kenyon]

He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them. A Star man, however, got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane.

The Star does not say Schwartz lived on Backchurch lane, only that they found him there.
Regards Darryl

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The Star does not say Schwartz lived on Backchurch lane, only that they found him there.

It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane.

The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.