The Absence Of Evidence

[FrankO]

We also need this to be false.

Smith: At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round.

Well, counting backwards from Blackwell's timing, we'd get the following.
1:16 a.m. : Dr. Blackwell arrives at the scene
1:12 – 1:13 a.m. : As Edward Johnson, Blackwell’s assistant, arrives with PC 426, Smith leaves to get the ambulance
As it doesn't seem that Smith had been in the yard for very long when he was sent for the ambulance, he seems to have arrived in the yard close to 1:10 am, give or take a minute.

So, judging by the other evidence we have, it seems to me that Smith was off on his timing, regardless of the official timing given by Diemshutz.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The way I interpret the evidence is that he indeed went out alone and was later joined by Kozebrodski. Maybe he used ‘we’ here as in ‘all of us who went looking for a PC’, after Kozebrodski had told Eagle that he & Diemshutz hadn’t found a PC. But seeing that he used ‘we’ 2 times and finished with ‘I’ all in one sentence, I wonder if he actually used the word ‘we’. Makes no sense and, therefore, may very well have been an error by the journalist.

Of course it makes sense. I found two constables... is at the end of the search, when he is with another searcher (apparently Koz, but that is unclear), regardless of the quotes being taken literally, or being interpreted.
Eagle is on the stand - it is his actions being questioned by the coroner. He found the constables, and probably being the senior of the two doing the search, and the one with the better English, he probably did the talking.
Your interpretation would require the order of 'we, we, I', to be reversed, to make any sense.

The Kozebrodski quote contains 3 'I's, and zero 'we's - are we to conclude that he went up to Grove street alone?

As you might know by now, Andrew, I’m one who likes to stick to the official statements and am cautious about the more controversial (versions of these) statements/accounts - although they may be very interesting, of course. This is because I think that, generally, people were and are more inclined to tell the truth to police and coroners alike then to the newspapers.

Are you saying that Arbeter Fraint was just another newspaper? Given the context - those who wrote and contributed to it being present in the yard just after the murder - I don't think AF can be dismissed simply by calling it "unofficial". I doubt the contributors would tell porkies to their comrades, but tell all the truth and nothing but to 'gentile justice'. If anything, the opposite. In fact Diemschitz makes no reference to going in the back door and finding Koz, who then goes into the printing shop and editors office, at the inquest - that whole sequence is omitted.

Here is a newspaper quote that actually supports the idea that it were someone other than Koz that went with Eagle, that the searches were concurrent (not sequential), and that the search took 'ages'. Irish Times, Oct 1:

Both men ran off without delay to find a policeman, and at the same time other members of the club had by this time found their way into the court, and went off with the same object in different directions. The search was for some time fruitless. At last, however, after considerable delay, a constable was found in Commercial road.

This sounds quite similar to the AF account:

Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers.

The evidence points to the search taking an extended period.

Looking at it that way, I don’t think there’s a problem with Diemshutz entering Berner Street when he saw the clock was indicating one o’clock. He would have turned into the yard about half a minute later. But even if we’d say it took him a minute, he’d still have arrived at around 1:01, then another half a minute to eventually find out the object in the yard was a woman and another half a minute to go inside, alert others, go outside with Kozebrodski and a candle to see all the blood and then run out of the yard in search of a PC by the time the clock had just or was about to strike 1:02 am.

You are trying to make the evidence fit a predefined outcome.

And then, on to Eagle, who was sent for the Leman Street Police Station. Going there by way of Commercial Street, the distance would have been some 610 meters. Going there by Fairclough Street, Backchurch Lane and Hooper Street, it would have been some 515 meters. Running there at a speed of 2 m/s (7.2 km/hr, a slow jogging speed), it would have taken Eagle 5 minutes and 5 seconds to cover 610 meters. If he was sent there at around 1:05 by Lamb, he would have arrived there a little after 1:10. If he took the shorter route, he would have arrived there just before 1:10. If he ran quicker than 7.2 km/hr, ect. …

Whatever the case, he could very well have arrived at the station shortly before or around 1:10 am.

There is no way all the activity can be squeezed into 10 minutes.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Well, counting backwards from Blackwell's timing, we'd get the following.
1:16 a.m. : Dr. Blackwell arrives at the scene
1:12 – 1:13 a.m. : As Edward Johnson, Blackwell’s assistant, arrives with PC 426, Smith leaves to get the ambulance
As it doesn't seem that Smith had been in the yard for very long when he was sent for the ambulance, he seems to have arrived in the yard close to 1:10 am, give or take a minute.

So, judging by the other evidence we have, it seems to me that Smith was off on his timing, regardless of the official timing given by Diemshutz.

The Times, Oct 6:

Smith: When I saw deceased lying on the ground I recognized her at once and made a report of what I had seen.

So Smith was at the yard for some time before going for an ambulance.

If the above quote is to be ignored, then consider the alternative. That would have Smith last being in Berner street at 12:42:30, give or take a minute.
Fanny supposedly went to her doorstep just after hearing his plod go by.
Did she then witness "the incident"?

You might argue that Smith said he was last in Berner street at about 12:35, but that would mean two things.

One: Having Smith return at 1:10 would put him outside the parameters of his normal beat timespan.

Smith: It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat.

Yet Smith does not mention encountering any delays, so a delay must simply be assumed.

Two: You would be accepting that he got the earlier time about right, but not the most recent. That would be quite arbitrary, especially given that he has just written a report of his own activities and observations!

[FrankO]

The Times, Oct 6:

Smith: When I saw deceased lying on the ground I recognized her at once and made a report of what I had seen.

So Smith was at the yard for some time before going for an ambulance.

If the above quote is to be ignored, then consider the alternative. That would have Smith last being in Berner street at 12:42:30, give or take a minute.
Fanny supposedly went to her doorstep just after hearing his plod go by.
Did she then witness "the incident"?

You might argue that Smith said he was last in Berner street at about 12:35, but that would mean two things.

One: Having Smith return at 1:10 would put him outside the parameters of his normal beat timespan.

Smith: It takes me from 25 minutes to half an hour to go round my beat.

Yet Smith does not mention encountering any delays, so a delay must simply be assumed.

Two: You would be accepting that he got the earlier time about right, but not the most recent. That would be quite arbitrary, especially given that he has just written a report of his own activities and observations!

Well, Smith clearly arrived after Lamb, who said he arrived 10 to 12 minutes before Dr. Blackwell. If we'd go by the only man who had a watch, Lamb arrived in the yard at 1:04 - 1:06. He then, after some time, blew his whistle, which attracted PC 12 HR (Collins) to the scene and when Smith arrived there, he saw Lamb and Collins. So, let's say Lamb arrived in the yard at 1:04 at the earliest, he then sends PC 426 H for the doctor and Eagle for inspector Pinhorn, he then blows his whistle and then Collins arrives. So, I'd say that we just have to accept that - by Blackwell's watch at least - Smith arrived in the yard at approximately 1:05 at the earliest, which still doesn't fit with him arriving at the top of Berner Street at 1:00 am.

Going by Blackwell's watch, I actually do think Smith saw Stride & companion later than the 12:30-12:35 that he himself claimed. I think it would have been closer to 12:40.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Well, Smith clearly arrived after Lamb, who said he arrived 10 to 12 minutes before Dr. Blackwell. If we'd go by the only man who had a watch, Lamb arrived in the yard at 1:04 - 1:06. He then, after some time, blew his whistle, which attracted PC 12 HR (Collins) to the scene and when Smith arrived there, he saw Lamb and Collins. So, let's say Lamb arrived in the yard at 1:04 at the earliest, he then sends PC 426 H for the doctor and Eagle for inspector Pinhorn, he then blows his whistle and then Collins arrives. So, I'd say that we just have to accept that - by Blackwell's watch at least - Smith arrived in the yard at approximately 1:05 at the earliest, which still doesn't fit with him arriving at the top of Berner Street at 1:00 am.

I think that's about right, and I don't think Smith got to the top of Berner street at 1:00 anyway.
I would quibble that Blackwell actually started his examination at 1:16, and arrived a minute or two earlier.

We can test Lamb's sense of time, to some degree, as follows (Times, Oct 3)...

About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me.

So by his own estimate of the alert time, he would arrive in the yard just a little after 1am - let's say 1:01.

Dr. Blackwell, about ten minutes after I got there, was the first doctor to arrive.

Now ~1:11.

Dr. Blackwell examined the body, and afterwards the surrounding ground. Dr. Phillips arrived about 20 minutes afterwards; but at that time I was at another part of the ground.

Now ~1:31.

So what time was Dr. Phillips recorded at arriving? Lloyd's Weekly News, Sep 30:

Dr. Phillips was sent for, who came at 1.30 in a cab.

Obviously the starting estimate - 1:00 - has a margin of error attached to it, but his subjective sense of time seems good.

With all the hullaballoo in the yard when the body is found, and all the search time for police considered, I cannot see Diemschitz arriving in the 60 seconds leading up to 1:01. It just doesn't work.

Going by Blackwell's watch, I actually do think Smith saw Stride & companion later than the 12:30-12:35 that he himself claimed. I think it would have been closer to 12:40.

Agree, and Smith only estimated the earlier time anyway.
It goes without saying that 12:40 does not bode well for the reality of the 12:45 incident.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I can’t see any reason for questioning Diemschutz. He saw a clock and could judge how long it took for him to arrive at the yard so the chances of him making an error of any note is almost non-existent. Obviously he had no reason to lie and we know that no cover up took place so I can see no reason to doubt that Diemschutz discovered the body between 1.00 and 1.01.

I also see no issue with ‘fitting in’ everything that we know occurred between his arrival and the arrival of Dr Blackwell. I’d say that there was ample time.

All that remains is the order of events. My opinion will irritate some but I’d say that if we can make things fit by allowing for a bit of leeway with times that that is likely to be the explanation. We can never know for certain though of course.

[Herlock Sholmes]

.
Going by Blackwell's watch, I actually do think Smith saw Stride & companion later than the 12:30-12:35 that he himself claimed. I think it would have been closer to 12:40.
Agree, and Smith only estimated the earlier time anyway.
It goes without saying that 12:40 does not bode well for the reality of the 12:45 incident

Then I’d suggest perhaps if it was 12.38 then Mortimer might have been wrong about how long she stood on her doorstep for. We also need to consider that Schwartz might not have passed at exactly 12.45 (it might have been 12.46 or 12.47 or 12.48)

Juggle and it works

[FrankO]

I would quibble that Blackwell actually started his examination at 1:16, and arrived a minute or two earlier.

I don't see on what Blackwell should have wasted a minute or two. He arrived, Lamb showed him the body, saying that nobody had touched her or something similar and he was off with his examination. Besides, Blackwell himself stated "I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m.". To me, that's clear enough: he consulted his watch around the moment he entered the yard, not while he was examining Stride.

We can test Lamb's sense of time, to some degree, as follows (Times, Oct 3)...

About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me.

So by his own estimate of the alert time, he would arrive in the yard just a little after 1am - let's say 1:01.

Dr. Blackwell, about ten minutes after I got there, was the first doctor to arrive.

Now ~1:11.

Dr. Blackwell examined the body, and afterwards the surrounding ground. Dr. Phillips arrived about 20 minutes afterwards; but at that time I was at another part of the ground.

Now ~1:31.

So what time was Dr. Phillips recorded at arriving? Lloyd's Weekly News, Sep 30:

Dr. Phillips was sent for, who came at 1.30 in a cab.

Obviously the starting estimate - 1:00 - has a margin of error attached to it, but his subjective sense of time seems good.

What if Lamb's sense of time was just 3 to 5 minutes off on Blackwell's watch?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I don't see on what Blackwell should have wasted a minute or two. He arrived, Lamb showed him the body, saying that nobody had touched her or something similar and he was off with his examination. Besides, Blackwell himself stated "I consulted my watch on my arrival, and it was 1.16 a.m.". To me, that's clear enough: he consulted his watch around the moment he entered the yard, not while he was examining Stride.

Johnston: As soon as Dr. Blackwell came he looked at his watch. It was then 1:16.

So it was after he entered the yard, and not in the gloom of Berner street. On arriving he would have immediately spoken to the PC at the gate, been let through, met with his assistant by the body, looked at his watch (with the benefit of police lanterns), then commenced his examination. So not much time, but some.
It's when he is initially with the victim, that is important from a medical point of view.

What if Lamb's sense of time was just 3 to 5 minutes off on Blackwell's watch?

As I mentioned, Lamb's alert time estimate obviously has a significant margin of error, because its a subjective estimate.*
I was merely pointing out that Lamb's sense of timing seems to have been quite accurate, as you would expect for a PC.
I'm not saying he necessarily got to the yard at 1:01.

* Or was it? What I find interesting about Lamb is this...

About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road...

What was the 'tell'?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I can’t see any reason for questioning Diemschutz. He saw a clock and could judge how long it took for him to arrive at the yard so the chances of him making an error of any note is almost non-existent. Obviously he had no reason to lie and we know that no cover up took place so I can see no reason to doubt that Diemschutz discovered the body between 1.00 and 1.01.

I also see no issue with ‘fitting in’ everything that we know occurred between his arrival and the arrival of Dr Blackwell. I’d say that there was ample time.

All that remains is the order of events. My opinion will irritate some but I’d say that if we can make things fit by allowing for a bit of leeway with times that that is likely to be the explanation. We can never know for certain though of course.

If you can't see any reason for questioning Diemschitz, then I can't see any reason for allowing for a bit of leeway with times.
If you choose "precisely one o'clock", you have to make it work without any fiddling.
If you can't make it work, that's too bad for you and Louis.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Then I’d suggest perhaps if it was 12.38 then Mortimer might have been wrong about how long she stood on her doorstep for.

If it was 12:38, what time does he return?
Then what time does Lamb arrive?
Then Spooner?
Then commence search?
Then hullaballoo in the yard?
Then discover victim?
Then enter yard?
Then enter Berner street ... at what time?

We also need to consider that Schwartz might not have passed at exactly 12.45 (it might have been 12.46 or 12.47 or 12.48)

Juggle and it works

I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between twelve thirty-nine and a quarter to one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual.

Goddammit it works! You're right!

[Herlock Sholmes]

If you can't see any reason for questioning Diemschitz, then I can't see any reason for allowing for a bit of leeway with times.
If you choose "precisely one o'clock", you have to make it work without any fiddling.
If you can't make it work, that's too bad for you and Louis.

But we have valid reasons.

Diemschutz had no reason to lie about the time that he discovered the body.
He saw a clock just before he arrived.
He knew how long it took to get from clock to yard.
If the clock said 1.00 then it was physically possible for him to get to the yard with the clock still at 1.00.
Even if it was actually 1.01 there’s no issue at all.
Eagle said that he was called to the body around 1.00.

We allow for leeway because we know for a fact that most people had no watch.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If it was 12:38, what time does he return?
Then what time does Lamb arrive?
Then Spooner?
Then commence search?
Then hullaballoo in the yard?
Then discover victim?
Then enter yard?
Then enter Berner street ... at what time?





I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between twelve thirty-nine and a quarter to one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual.

Goddammit it works! You're right!

Forget nitpicking over a minute or two or three here or there....
Accept 100% that there was no plot therefore no one was lying.....
Accept that errors occurred....

And it does work.

The timeline is of little importance and the only reason we began discussing it was because we were hoping that Michael would see sense. He didn’t. There was no cover up. We know this without a shadow of a doubt. Therefore all that we need to know that Diemschutz discovered the body at 1.00 + or - a minute and that she was killed just before by a man who might or might not have been Jack the Ripper.

[Fiver]

So he estimated when he left by when he arrived and said he saw no-one, and you feel entitled to question the point?

I did not question Wess statement, I showed that it contradicted your claim. You claimed that Wess said Berner Street was "empty at 12:20-12:30".

His statement, which you quote, contradicts your claim.

"[Coroner] How do you know that you finally left at a quarter-past twelve o'clock? - Because of the time when I reached my lodgings. Before leaving I went into the yard, and thence to the printing-office, in order to leave some literature there, and on returning to the yard I observed that the double door at the entrance was open. There is no lamp in the yard, and none of the street lamps light it, so that the yard is only lit by the lights through the windows at the side of the club and of the tenements opposite. As to the tenements, I only observed lights in two first-floor windows. There was also a light in the printing- office, the editor being in his room reading.
[Coroner] Was there much noise in the club? - Not exactly much noise; but I could hear the singing when I was in the yard.
[Coroner] Did you look towards the yard gates? - Not so much to the gates as to the ground, but nothing unusual attracted my attention.
[Coroner] Can you say that there was no object on the ground? - I could not say that.
[Coroner] Do you think it possible that anything can have been there without your observing it? - It was dark, and I am a little shortsighted, so that it is possible. The distance from the gates to the kitchen door is 18 ft.
[Coroner] What made you look towards the gates at all? - Simply because they were open. I went into the club, and called my brother, and we left together by the front door.
[Coroner] On leaving did you see anybody as you passed the yard? - No.
[Coroner] Or did you meet any one in the street? - Not that I recollect. I generally go home between twelve and one o'clock."

Wess testimony was that he "left at a quarter-past twelve o'clock". By 12:20 Wess was 5 minutes away from the club. By 12:30, Wess was 15 minutes away from the club. He did not and could not have testified that Berner Street was bear the club was "empty at 12:20-12:30".

[Fiver]

See my response above, he didnt say he saw anyone. Strike 2.

When asked "Did you see anyone about in Berner-street?', Eagle replied "I dare say I did, but I do not remember them." That directly contradicts your idea that "Eagle said it was empty as he returned at 12:40", he said he did see people.

This is the 3rd time I have posted this direct quote of Wess saying "I did" see "anyone about in Berner-street".

Re-read your post.....nor did I see anybody moving about in the street....you get a Ball 1 because I added the smoking bit.

Lave did not say "nor did I see anybody moving about in the street" - he said "nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions".

"I was in the yard of the club this morning about twenty minutes to one. At half-past twelve I had come out into the street to get a breath of fresh air. There was nothing unusual in the street. So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."

Lave said "There was nothing unusual in the street", he did not say the street "was empty". Lave did say "nobody came into the yard" from 12:30 to 1:00, which is clearly incorrect. Lave said "nor did I see anybody moving about there [Dutfield's Yard] in a way to excite my suspicions, " not "nor did I see anybody moving about in the street".

Strike 3 - for you.

Fanny Mortimer's statement does not disprove my point about the couple that she saw in the street.

According in Fanny Mortimer "A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

According to the Daily News "A young girl had been standing in a bisecting thoroughfare not fifty yards from the spot where the body was found. She had, she said, been standing there for about twenty minutes, talking with her sweetheart, but neither of them heard any unusual noises."

The couple did not say Berner Street "was empty", they said they did not hear "any unusual noises" coming from Dutfield's Yard.

Fanny Mortimer's statement does not disprove my point about the multiple statements she made. Both statements occur in the same edition of the Evening News, yet you claim one as "her quote" and dismiss the other as "press manufactured".

According to what you call the "press manufactured" quote "During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time."

In this statement, Mortimer did not say Berner Street was empty "from 12:35 until 12:55", she said "she saw no one enter or leave" Dutfield's Yard between 12:45 and 12:55.

According to what you call "her quote", Mortimer said she "did not notice anything unusual" and "There was certainly no noise made, and I did not observe anyone enter the gates" and "the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road. He looked up at the club, and then went round the corner by the Board School."

This e second, contradictory statement is a claim that the man with the bag (Leon Goldstein) was the only man to "pass through the street" during "nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock". It is not proof "that Berner street was empty and deserted from 12:35 until 12:55". It is proof that Fanny Mortimer did not notice Lave, Eagle, Kozebrodski, Letchford, or Schwartz at the times they claim to have been in been on Berner Sreet.