The Absence Of Evidence

[Michael W Richards]

George, I already quoted Kozebrodski.


I suggest you look at the Evening News of 1 Oct., they have an interview with Kozebrodski..

"I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one. Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me"... (Isaac M. Kozebrodski)

First he went with Diemshutz, then went to find Eagle, and returned with him with the two constables.

He never says he went with Diemshitz, you either missed the "I" quoted above, or the rest of the statement. Lets try being honest about this, it will be more helpful to everyone even though you are wrong...or worse.

"I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He told me there was something in the yard, and told me to come and see what it was. When we had got outside he struck a match, and when we looked down on the ground we could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom."

Thats the quote in its entirety, and judging by its actual content I suggest you just "tailored it" to try and defend your own opinions on the matter.

The quote says he saw Louis by the body at approximately 12:40 and he went out at the request of Louis or some member, not with anyone. You people arguing with this point must believe everyone else is incapable of just checking the real facts for what was said. Its clear, it matches other times given, and it isnt "tailored" by anyone.

One other point, based on the length of the blood stream seen by Issac, how long before he was there would she have been cut? And what time would Louis have arrived if he called Issac himself at 12:40? "Precisely" at 1?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ok, he made a mistake by 5 minutes, happy? Now they all agree on a time, they are not all wrong by 20 minutes or more. Doesnt it seem odd to you that you and others are arguing for a discovery time that is 20 minutes or more after a number of witnesses stated they were by the body? Because 1 witness who is the most responsible for anything bad happening on that property says so? You mentioned the Arbeter Fraint, at what time did the late November issue of that paper say the women was discovered murdered?

Dont bother...12:45.

The paper says:

At about one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body.

The reference to the ~12:45 murder time ...

The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one.

... is consistent with Wess's comments to the Echo reporter, on the day of the murder. Wess knew of the Schwartz incident, be it manufactured or real, and its approximate time, before the police did. So, who told Wess and what was seen?

[Fiver]

What doesnt agree with those statements? Statements made by Lave, Eagle and Mr and Mrs Diemshitz, all employed by the club.

The rime estimates by these club members are supported by Fanny Mortimer and PC Lamb.

While Kozebrodsky, a member of the club, gave an earlier time.

[Fiver]

Ok, he made a mistake by 5 minutes, happy? Now they all agree on a time, they are not all wrong by 20 minutes or more.

Spooner does not agree with Kozebrodsky and Hershberg, By the time he arrived, he saw about a dozen more people than the other two men did, yet his time is 5 to 10 minutes earlier than the times of the other two men.

Spooner contradicts everyone. He contradicts Hershberg and Kozebrodsky, He contradicts Diemshutz, Weiss, and Eagle. He contradicts Schwartz. He contradicts Mortimer. He contradicts PC Lamb. Spooner even contradicts Spooner.

[Fiver]

Daily News 2 Oct 1888:
It seems that the particular corner of Mitre-square in which the body of the woman was found has long had an evil reputation. Said a man whose occupation for many years has thoroughly familiarized him with the locality and all that has gone on in it, "I have often heard the policeman who went this beat regularly for sixteen years say that that was a well-known resort, and from my own knowledge it is so. The place is well patrolled," he continued in reply to queries. "Yes, there's no doubt about that. The constable on the beat now is as regular as clockwork. You may tell to a minute when he'll be round."

So Eagle's opinion was that it was Jacobs that ran down Fairclough with another. Was this other Diemshitz?

Also an interest viewpoint on the accuracy of the police times.

That's a statement about one constable being "regular as clockwork". It implies the previous beat constable was not. It makes no statement about the police as a whole.

[Wickerman]

Michael, why are you so anxious to be contentious?
Did you miss post 459?
This is the post where I quoted Diemshutz as talking about Kozebrodski, he then mentions Eagle going a different way "TO WHAT WE DID".
The "we" is himself & Kozebrodski.
Post 459 - read it.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/motive-method-and-madness/756057-the-absence-of-evidence?p=817826#post817826

You will find a paragraph containing the following pertinent details.

(Louis Diemshutz)
"One of the members named Isaacs came out with me. (meaning - Isaac Kozebrodski)
We struck a match,.....
we saw a stream of blood flowing right down to the door of the club.
We sent for the police without delay....
we had some difficulty in finding one.
A man called Eagle, also a member of the club, went out to find a policeman; and going in a different direction to what we did,

Diemshutz & Kozebrodski went one way, along Fairclough, while Eagle went a different way.

Any further false accusations like the one below will cause your immediate removal from my xmas list!

He never says he went with Diemshitz, you either missed the "I" quoted above, or the rest of the statement. Lets try being honest about this, it will be more helpful to everyone even though you are wrong...or worse...

[Michael W Richards]

The rime estimates by these club members are supported by Fanny Mortimer and PC Lamb.

While Kozebrodsky, a member of the club, gave an earlier time.

Its remarkable how bad at math some folks are. If Lamb said he saw Eagle before 1am, then what time did Eagle leave for help? If Fanny said no-one was seen near the gates after 12:55 until 1, then could Louis have arrived at that same time? If Issac says he was called by Louis to the passageway at 20 to 1, then what time would she have been discovered? Why did Heschberg believe he heard of the woman around 12:40? Why did Spooner think he saw the men running for help and then followed them back to the gates around 12:35-12:40? Why did the Arbeter Fraint state that the murder happened at a quarter to 1? Why didnt anyone see or hear Israel, BSM or Pipeman? Fanny said she could hear bootsteps from inside.

So, no, the times given by Lave, Eagle and Louis's remarks cannot be considered correct or a validation of the others mentioned. And the other accounts roughly validate each others time, no-one saw Israel, Louis, or Eagle or Lave to validate what they claimed.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael, why are you so anxious to be contentious?
Did you miss post 459?
This is the post where I quoted Diemshutz as talking about Kozebrodski, he then mentions Eagle going a different way "TO WHAT WE DID".
The "we" is himself & Kozebrodski.
Post 459 - read it.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/motive-method-and-madness/756057-the-absence-of-evidence?p=817826#post817826

You will find a paragraph containing the following pertinent details.

(Louis Diemshutz)
"One of the members named Isaacs came out with me. (meaning - Isaac Kozebrodski)
We struck a match,.....
we saw a stream of blood flowing right down to the door of the club.
We sent for the police without delay....
we had some difficulty in finding one.
A man called Eagle, also a member of the club, went out to find a policeman; and going in a different direction to what we did,

Diemshutz & Kozebrodski went one way, along Fairclough, while Eagle went a different way.

Any further false accusations like the one below will cause your immediate removal from my xmas list!

You put in parentheses that Issacs was in fact Issac Kozebrodski, Louis didnt say that, he said Issacs,... and you have seen untold amount of times that Issac Kozebrodski said himself that he was sent out by Louis or some other member around 12:40. He says he met Eagle when he was returning, and noted that he was with a PC. Lamb, in this case. Who said he saw Eagle near 1am. How did Lamb see Eagle just before 1am when Louis didnt even discover the body until just after 1, by his own statement, which meant that people would have gone for help 5 minutes or so... at the earliest... after his arrival. That means first leaving for help around 1:05ish. How did Johnson arrive at 1:10 when, according to Louis and yourself, he and Issacs didnt even seek help until around 1:05? How did Lamb see Eagle when Eagle hadnt even left for help yet? How did Issac see Lamb and Eagle return with Lamb around 1 if Louis hadnt even arrived or discovered the body yet? How did Issac Kozebrodski forget that Louis and he went out together within 1 hour?

So, is it your contention that Issac Kozebrodski's statement within 1 hour of the bodies discovery is less trustworthy than your interpreted version of what Louis said? Do you believe Issac Kozebrodski forgot that Louis came with him.. within an hour? I posted Issac K's remarks for you, note when he says I and when he says we. Note the times he gives, and the actions he said took place.

So in your estimation, Louis, who provably did not arrive at the gates at "precisely" 1am as he claimed, knew better about what Issac Kozebrodki did, and when, than Issac did himself?

The basic truths are that Issac didnt forget, he went alone as he stated, that Louis didnt arrive at 1 as he vehemently insisted, he wasnt seen even approaching from 12:50 until 1am, that Lambs recollection of the time he saw Eagle is likely very close to spot on, since his job required him to track his times, and that no-one saw Eagle return, no-one saw Israel or BSM or Pipeman at all, or Liz on the street after 12:35. Multiple witnesses said the discovery time was around 12:40-12:45, which validates when Lamb might have seen Eagle if he had left for help shortly thereafter, and that there are no witnesses that validate anything Israel, Louis or Eagle, or Mrs D or Lave said. Eagle and Lave dont even validate each other despite apparently being in the same place at the same time with no-one else around.

You folks choose the people devoid of any corroborative evidence over multiple corroborated accounts. Think about that.

[Michael W Richards]

"I (Issac singular) was in this club last night. I (Issac singular) came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He (Louis) told me there was something in the yard, and told me (Issac singular) to come and see what it was. When we (Issac and Louis) had got outside he struck a match, ... and when we looked down on the ground, (Issac and Louis), we (Issac and Louis) could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I (Issac singular) should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I (Issac singular), went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, (at the request of Louis or some other member), but I (Issac singular), took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I (Issac singular) afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle,(Issac and Eagle) and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom".^[1]

According to Issac his awareness of the body was the result of Louis notifying him at 12:40, he was sent out...he did not have company...he saw Eagle and policemen, Lamb says this was just before 1,... and Lamb Eagle and Issac all went back to the gates together.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If Lamb said he saw Eagle before 1am,.

What about if Lamb said”

“About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell,” ?

The Times.

or,

“At about one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road between Christian-street and Batty-street “

Daily News.

or,

“Police-constable Henry Lamb said that on Sunday morning when he was in Commercial-road, at about 1 o'clock”

East London Advertiser.

or,

“Early on the morning of Sunday last, while I was on duty in the Commercial-road”

The Echo.

or,

“About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street”

Morning Advertiser.


Good methodology though Michael. Ignore the majority and stick to the single one that like. And you have the nerve to question other people’s assessment of evidence.

[FrankO]

What about if Lamb said”

“About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell,” ?

The Times.

or,

“At about one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road between Christian-street and Batty-street “

Daily News.

or,

“Police-constable Henry Lamb said that on Sunday morning when he was in Commercial-road, at about 1 o'clock”

East London Advertiser.

or,

“Early on the morning of Sunday last, while I was on duty in the Commercial-road”

The Echo.

or,

“About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street”

Morning Advertiser.


Good methodology though Michael. Ignore the majority and stick to the single one that like. And you have the nerve to question other people’s assessment of evidence.

In addition, Mike, I don't believe the second PC (426H), who was on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove Street until 1 am, would have been allowed to leave his post if it would have been before 1 am when they were called. This would, of course, support the notion that it was actually just past 1 am when they were called rather than before.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In addition, Mike, I don't believe the second PC (426H), who was on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove Street until 1 am, would have been allowed to leave his post if it would have been before 1 am when they were called. This would, of course, support the notion that it was actually just past 1 am when they were called rather than before.

Good point Frank. I’d forgotten about the fixed point duty. Michael will ignore it or say that there was no such thing as fixed point duty.

[Fiver]

So, no, the times given by Lave, Eagle and Louis's remarks cannot be considered correct or a validation of the others mentioned. And the other accounts roughly validate each others time, no-one saw Israel, Louis, or Eagle or Lave to validate what they claimed.

The time estimates by these club members are supported by Fanny Mortimer and PC Lamb. According to 4 out of 5 accounts, Lamb said "around" 1am, not "before". Mortimer's account directly supports Diemschutz, saying she hear his cart about four minutes after she went back inside at around 12:55am.

Kozebrodsky, a member of the club, gave an earlier time. His time estimate is supported by Hershberg. They are clearly contradicted by Fanny Mortimer.

Spooner does not agree with Kozebrodsky and Hershberg, By the time he arrived, he saw about a dozen more people than the other two men did, yet his time is 5 to 10 minutes earlier than the times of the other two men.

Spooner contradicts everyone. He contradicts Hershberg and Kozebrodsky, He contradicts Diemshutz, Weiss, and Eagle. He contradicts Schwartz. He contradicts Mortimer. He contradicts Goldstein, He contradicts PC Lamb. Spooner even contradicts Spooner.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The time estimates by these club members are supported by Fanny Mortimer and PC Lamb. According to 4 out of 5 accounts, Lamb said "around" 1am, not "before". Mortimer's account directly supports Diemschutz, saying she hear his cart about four minutes after she went back inside at around 12:55am.

Kozebrodsky, a member of the club, gave an earlier time. His time estimate is supported by Hershberg. They are clearly contradicted by Fanny Mortimer.

Spooner does not agree with Kozebrodsky and Hershberg, By the time he arrived, he saw about a dozen more people than the other two men did, yet his time is 5 to 10 minutes earlier than the times of the other two men.

Spooner contradicts everyone. He contradicts Hershberg and Kozebrodsky, He contradicts Diemshutz, Weiss, and Eagle. He contradicts Schwartz. He contradicts Mortimer. He contradicts Goldstein, He contradicts PC Lamb. Spooner even contradicts Spooner.

You’re not playing the game Fiver.

[GBinOz]

In addition, Mike, I don't believe the second PC (426H), who was on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove Street until 1 am, would have been allowed to leave his post if it would have been before 1 am when they were called. This would, of course, support the notion that it was actually just past 1 am when they were called rather than before.

Hi Frank,

Astute observations, as always.
Lamb testified:
Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder." I asked where, and as they got to the corner of Berner-street they pointed down and said, "There." I saw people moving some distance down the street. I ran, followed by another constable - 426 H.

A few questions present themselves.
Whose job was it to determine that it was one o'clock and release the fixed-point officer?
Did the release conclude that officer's shift resulting in him departing?
When Eagle and Koze spotted Lamb, was the latter headed towards the fixed point officer, or was he headed west after reaching the fixed point and turning around to resume his beat?
Since Lamb testified he didn't have a watch, one might draw a conclusion that a clock was visible from the fixed point or that 426H had a watch.
Lamb testified that he was followed by 426H. Did 426H have to wait to follow as it was not yet one o'clock? If it was after one o'clock, why was 426H still in place at the fixed point? Was it so close to one o'clock that he hadn't had a chance yet to leave?

My conclusion is that, either way, it was very close to one o'clock (police time) when Lamb responded to Eagle and Koze. I do also note that Diemshitz said that, after the discovery of the body, it took a long time to find a PC. Wess nominated that time interval to be 15 minutes.

I am confident that you will have some logical comments to present on the above, as usual.

Best regards, George