How many victims?

[FISHY1118]

"Confidently Asserted"

[Whitechapel]

This argument/debate is going around in circles like the debate between Trevor and David Orsam over when Tumblety was placed in custody. Like that debate the evidence is open to interpretation and in both cases Trevor forces the evidence to the limit.

In the case of Kelly's missing heart, the newspapers are contradictory and in the case of The Times, 2 reports contradicting each other over 2 days on the 12th and 13th November.

Documentary evidence always has to be treated as a special case because you have to look at the context. My background is archaeology, so I prefer to look at Kelly's room, that resembled an abbatoir and her body had been reduced to jelly. The idea that all the organs could be stitched back together and the body made whole again is fanciful. We already know that remaining body parts were collected in a bucket. I think this is the source of the confusion in the papers, in that they didn't know what they had (ie what was in the bucket) and they couldn't say whether the heart was there or not.

Either way I don't think it matters, if you excuse the pun because the heart is a red herring. The evidence is that the Ripper was interested in uteri (not the heart) that were removed from 2 other victims and this should have been the focus of the Ripper with Kelly, but when given the opportunity of a room rather than the street, he indulged himself and satisfaction was gained not from souvenir harvestting uteri or other organs but the mutilation and desecration of a woman.

My argument for the Ripper being the murderer of Nichols, Chapman,Stride, Eddowes and Kelly is that they all had their throats cut and this MO was used to reduce blood spray and to kill the victims quickly so organs could be harvested. There is also a pattern to the murders at the end of the month and 8th or 9th, they were all prostitutes killed in a small geographical area around Whitechapel and they were all mutilated after death. The double event describes the limit of mutilation on Stride because the Ripper was disturbed and the excessive mutilation of Kelly is explained by the body being found in a private room not the street, where the Ripper could indulge himself.

In order for Trevor's theory to fit, then there would have had to have been multliple serial killers and a rogue mortician also harvesting organs. It was not the view of the Police at the time and if anything over time the view is that there were more victims not less, killed by one serial killer.

My view has not changed that Tumblety was the Ripper, with his hatred of women, collection of uteri and his presence in Whitechapel at the time and we know this because he was arrested on indecency charges and the watching of Euston station for a quack doctor. I know a 6 foot Tumbelty does not match the description of who some of the victims were last seen with but I think Tumbelty had help luring the women into vulnerable positions.

I think the sub text of a lot of Trevor's arguments are to discredit Tumblety with his dispute over when he was in custody and whether organs were even harvested. In the custody case the evidence is ambiguous because there is no absolute proof when Tumblety was in custody just supposition (you would need the prison records for that). In the case of the missing organs the newspapers are contradictory but the post mortems say for 2 of the victims uteri were removed and this is why Trevor has to look to his rogue morticians theory as to why they were not present at the post mortems. I consider it highly unlikely given the high profile of the case that any mortician would have attempted this, when there would have been easier less high profile bodies to harvest organs from, that hadn't been messed about with.

The bottom line is that without DNA evidence, no one can say for sure who murdered these women and who mutilated them, so ultimately all you are left with, is my guess is as good as yours.

[FISHY1118]

Good post , Agree with one Murderer and the Five victims, and the killer having been responsible for the organs being removed .

[Harry D]

Good post , Agree with one Murderer and the Five victims, and the killer having been responsible for the organs being removed .

Do you also agree with Tumblety having help to lure the victims to their doom? Sounds kinda farfetched to me

[Aethelwulf]

This argument/debate is going around in circles like the debate between Trevor and David Orsam over when Tumblety was placed in custody. Like that debate the evidence is open to interpretation and in both cases Trevor forces the evidence to the limit.

In the case of Kelly's missing heart, the newspapers are contradictory and in the case of The Times, 2 reports contradicting each other over 2 days on the 12th and 13th November.

Documentary evidence always has to be treated as a special case because you have to look at the context. My background is archaeology, so I prefer to look at Kelly's room, that resembled an abbatoir and her body had been reduced to jelly. The idea that all the organs could be stitched back together and the body made whole again is fanciful. We already know that remaining body parts were collected in a bucket. I think this is the source of the confusion in the papers, in that they didn't know what they had (ie what was in the bucket) and they couldn't say whether the heart was there or not.

Either way I don't think it matters, if you excuse the pun because the heart is a red herring. The evidence is that the Ripper was interested in uteri (not the heart) that were removed from 2 other victims and this should have been the focus of the Ripper with Kelly, but when given the opportunity of a room rather than the street, he indulged himself and satisfaction was gained not from souvenir harvestting uteri or other organs but the mutilation and desecration of a woman.

My argument for the Ripper being the murderer of Nichols, Chapman,Stride, Eddowes and Kelly is that they all had their throats cut and this MO was used to reduce blood spray and to kill the victims quickly so organs could be harvested. There is also a pattern to the murders at the end of the month and 8th or 9th, they were all prostitutes killed in a small geographical area around Whitechapel and they were all mutilated after death. The double event describes the limit of mutilation on Stride because the Ripper was disturbed and the excessive mutilation of Kelly is explained by the body being found in a private room not the street, where the Ripper could indulge himself.

In order for Trevor's theory to fit, then there would have had to have been multliple serial killers and a rogue mortician also harvesting organs. It was not the view of the Police at the time and if anything over time the view is that there were more victims not less, killed by one serial killer.

My view has not changed that Tumblety was the Ripper, with his hatred of women, collection of uteri and his presence in Whitechapel at the time and we know this because he was arrested on indecency charges and the watching of Euston station for a quack doctor. I know a 6 foot Tumbelty does not match the description of who some of the victims were last seen with but I think Tumbelty had help luring the women into vulnerable positions.

I think the sub text of a lot of Trevor's arguments are to discredit Tumblety with his dispute over when he was in custody and whether organs were even harvested. In the custody case the evidence is ambiguous because there is no absolute proof when Tumblety was in custody just supposition (you would need the prison records for that). In the case of the missing organs the newspapers are contradictory but the post mortems say for 2 of the victims uteri were removed and this is why Trevor has to look to his rogue morticians theory as to why they were not present at the post mortems. I consider it highly unlikely given the high profile of the case that any mortician would have attempted this, when there would have been easier less high profile bodies to harvest organs from, that hadn't been messed about with.

The bottom line is that without DNA evidence, no one can say for sure who murdered these women and who mutilated them, so ultimately all you are left with, is my guess is as good as yours.

What are the main arguments for and against Tumblety's whereabouts in autumn 1888? He was clearly a very odd individual and I usually take things like height and age estimates with a big pinch of salt, but he seems a long way from any descriptions that were given. I also find the idea of an accomplice a non starter. The most I would go with is the ripper being out drinking with 'pals' and engineering a separation to go back to someone he'd already met or a new potential victim just spotted. Even that is perhaps a bit of a stretch. I think he was more likely drinking until late and then went out hunting alone.

[FISHY1118]

Do you also agree with Tumblety having help to lure the victims to their doom? Sounds kinda farfetched to me

Definitely not

[Abby Normal]

Definitely not

ive often had thoughts of if Dr T was involved-he used someone else for his dirty work-notably chapman, who he may have come across due to there similar medical quackery. In this scenario it was T who was inquiring about obtaining uteri and when that fell through paid chapman to do it.

I know-farfetched but there it is.

[John Wheat]

I find Tumblety a poor suspect for the simple reason that he would have stuck out like a sore thumb in Whitechapel. Around 6ft tall, flamboyantly dressed and with a large mustache. Also it's highly likely Tumblety was gay.

[GBinOz]

I find Tumblety a poor suspect for the simple reason that he would have stuck out like a sore thumb in Whitechapel. Around 6ft tall, flamboyantly dressed and with a large mustache. Also it's highly likely Tumblety was gay.

I agree, for the same reasons.

Cheers, George

[Fleetwood Mac]

If the answer is one killer, then we have to ask why didn’t that killer attempt to remove, or remove any organs from any of the other victims.

Most likely more than five.

I think it is a mistake to believe that all of the murders would have exhibited the same traits.

The experience of human nature tells us that every human pursuit is an organic, evolving process.

Wildlife photography is a hobby of mine: you don't just wake up one morning and understand what background will give you the contrast you need, at what point of the day when the sun is shining you can step to the side with the sun at a 90 degree angle, when there is simply not enough light to make it worthwhile, the appropriate aperture or shutter speed setting and so on. In order to get where you want to be, it is an evolving process and you have to learn from your experience, make your mistakes and hone your skills.

Likewise democracy: it is an organic, evolving process where you have to go through a boatload of civil strife to arrive at where you want to be, a more harmonious community existence.

In terms of serial killers, I think it's well understood that MO evolves/is modified. A serial killers signature is a different matter but I'm not quite sure exactly what the WM's signature was. You could argue destruction of female organs and so that wouldn't preclude murders prior to Polly.

[Damaso Marte]

Most likely more than five.

I think it is a mistake to believe that all of the murders would have exhibited the same traits.

The experience of human nature tells us that every human pursuit is an organic, evolving process.

Wildlife photography is a hobby of mine: you don't just wake up one morning and understand what background will give you the contrast you need, at what point of the day when the sun is shining you can step to the side with the sun at a 90 degree angle, when there is simply not enough light to make it worthwhile, the appropriate aperture or shutter speed setting and so on. In order to get where you want to be, it is an evolving process and you have to learn from your experience, make your mistakes and hone your skills.

Likewise democracy: it is an organic, evolving process where you have to go through a boatload of civil strife to arrive at where you want to be, a more harmonious community existence.

In terms of serial killers, I think it's well understood that MO evolves/is modified. A serial killers signature is a different matter but I'm not quite sure exactly what the WM's signature was. You could argue destruction of female organs and so that wouldn't preclude murders prior to Polly.

Do you ever go somewhere to take photos, maybe start taking a photo or two, only to realize the lighting isn't right or there are too many bears about? And then you abandon that photo shoot and go take photos somewhere else?

[Trevor Marriott]

In terms of serial killers, I think it's well understood that MO evolves/is modified. A serial killers signature is a different matter but I'm not quite sure exactly what the WM's signature was. You could argue destruction of female organs and so that wouldn't preclude murders prior to Polly.

Or just simply murder and mutilation, the only destruction was by ferociously stabbing the victims in the abdominal areas. But this killer didnt evolve if we are to belive all that we are told. In some case organs were found missing. in others no attempts made to remove organs

If you accept the same killer because organs were anatomically removed why would the killer mutilate the abdomens of these victims if he was intent on removing organs surely such an act of mutilation would damage the organs he was seeking.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fleetwood Mac]

Do you ever go somewhere to take photos, maybe start taking a photo or two, only to realize the lighting isn't right or there are too many bears about? And then you abandon that photo shoot and go take photos somewhere else?

It all becomes obvious and second nature but only through experience.

Initially, you have no idea which conditions will give you the better photos. One day you get some really good photos, more by accident and experimenting than anything else, and you take note of the conditions and your camera settings and it goes from there. You keep on experimenting and take note of what is more conducive.

Over time you know through experience when the lighting isn't right or the setting isn't right and you don't even bother turning up and trying to take photos in those conditions, whereas initially you take photos in any conditions and setting because you don't have the experience to know what will work and what won't.

[Fleetwood Mac]

why would the killer mutilate the abdomens of these victims if he was intent on removing organs

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I think your argument is underpinned by the premise that the WM began with organ harvesting as the objective. On what basis?

Then you have the issue of what was achievable and attainable, I'd imagine not always easy when you're propositioning and murdering prostitutes in the streets.

Then you have the issue that these types of murders were rare in London at that time, and some murders that modern theorists haven't attributed to the WM occurred in broadly the same location.

[Harry D]

In terms of early victims, I'm unconvinced by Emma Smith or Martha Tabram. There's a chance that Smith lied about her attackers because she was soliciting, but her murder has the signs of a sexual assault. Although JTR's motives may have been sexual, there was no sexual element to the canonical murders. Tabram's proximity to the first canonical murder in both time and place is problematic, but her injuries evinced either uncontrollable rage or picquerism. It's difficult to believe that JTR was "experimenting" when he stabbed her 39 times. These are not signature elements of the other Whitechapel murders, and I would argue this takes precedence over the fact she was a prostitute and her skirts were raised. Violence is an occupational hazard for prostitutes, and it would hardly be unnatural for her skirts to be raised in this position.