How many victims?

[Guest]

Trevor; Tabram wasn't mutilated. JTR was interrupted while attempting to mutilate Polly Nichlols and Alice McKenzie. JTR (IMO) did not kill Stride and Francis Coles was murdered by her "boy friend". Mary Jane Kelly was, in all probability, slaughtered by Joseph Barnett in a jealous rage, the thigh fat taken from her (along with her heart) used to create a blaze in the fire grate. No body parts (save for Eddowes's liver) having been taken away by JTR. The only thing JTR could have taken was the money agreed upon before an "arrangement" was made with the prostitutes he eventually killed. He wanted his money back. Hence to torn pockets in the dead women's clothing.

[Scott Nelson]

The Ripper mutilated; he didn't behead or dismember. His victims were Caucasian female prostitutes. He didn't stage his victims, he just left them where he killed them. The Ripper killed over a 10-week period. Other serial killers killed over a much longer period.

So say, 6 victims.

[Abby Normal]

Trevor; Tabram wasn't mutilated. JTR was interrupted while attempting to mutilate Polly Nichlols and Alice McKenzie. JTR (IMO) did not kill Stride and Francis Coles was murdered by her "boy friend". Mary Jane Kelly was, in all probability, slaughtered by Joseph Barnett in a jealous rage, the thigh fat taken from her (along with her heart) used to create a blaze in the fire grate. No body parts (save for Eddowes's liver) having been taken away by JTR. The only thing JTR could have taken was the money agreed upon before an "arrangement" was made with the prostitutes he eventually killed. He wanted his money back. Hence to torn pockets in the dead women's clothing.

hi manhattan and welcome
barnett could still have been the ripper though correct?

[Guest]

hi manhattan and welcome
barnett could still have been the ripper though correct?

Thanks for the welcome. No, I don't believe Barnett was the Ripper. That being said, I do think he killed Kelly; who else would have locked the door? He either had the key or used the broken window method (that only he & Kelly knew about). Kelly sure didn't lock it, no one else knew of it, and Barnett could come & go as he liked. Yes, Barnett did match descriptions of JTR, but 1/4 of the men living in Whitechapel could as well, I'm sure.
Barnett's & Kelly's relationship is interesting though. I'm interested in how she got to the East End in the first place. It's a theory I'm working on.

[MrBarnett]

Thanks for the welcome. No, I don't believe Barnett was the Ripper. That being said, I do think he killed Kelly; who else would have locked the door? He either had the key or used the broken window method (that only he & Kelly knew about). Kelly sure didn't lock it, no one else knew of it, and Barnett could come & go as he liked. Yes, Barnett did match descriptions of JTR, but 1/4 of the men living in Whitechapel could as well, I'm sure.
Barnett's & Kelly's relationship is interesting though. I'm interested in how she got to the East End in the first place. It's a theory I'm working on.

Hi Manhattan,

Don’t you think Maria Harvey might have known how to lock/unlock the door through the broken window?

Gary

[Abby Normal]

Thanks for the welcome. No, I don't believe Barnett was the Ripper. That being said, I do think he killed Kelly; who else would have locked the door? He either had the key or used the broken window method (that only he & Kelly knew about). Kelly sure didn't lock it, no one else knew of it, and Barnett could come & go as he liked. Yes, Barnett did match descriptions of JTR, but 1/4 of the men living in Whitechapel could as well, I'm sure.
Barnett's & Kelly's relationship is interesting though. I'm interested in how she got to the East End in the first place. It's a theory I'm working on.

hi man
no one had a key to her room, they lost it. so perhaps if blotchy killed her, he locked (or it locked auto) before he left and closed the door. or barnett (or some one else like hutch) who knew the window trick came later when she was passed out. one things for sure-whoever killed her was the ripper IMHO.

rage (anger, jealousy) does many times point to a personal motive and that they knew each other, but to post mortem mutilate to that extent and remove organs requires a whole different animal. Im not saying barnet couldnt have done it, but if he did, then surely he was the ripper.

(one thing pointing away from barnett though is that when a loved one is murdered, the killer will often, for psychological reasons, will do something like cover them up with a blanket--not leave them horribly displayed)

and i do think mary kelly probably knew her killer, which imho means she knew the the ripper. ive felt for a long time this is one reason why she is the key to this ever being solved, although at this point unlikely.

[JeffHamm]

Thanks for the welcome. No, I don't believe Barnett was the Ripper. That being said, I do think he killed Kelly; who else would have locked the door? He either had the key or used the broken window method (that only he & Kelly knew about). Kelly sure didn't lock it, no one else knew of it, and Barnett could come & go as he liked. Yes, Barnett did match descriptions of JTR, but 1/4 of the men living in Whitechapel could as well, I'm sure.
Barnett's & Kelly's relationship is interesting though. I'm interested in how she got to the East End in the first place. It's a theory I'm working on.

Hi Manhattan,

There has been a fair bit on MJK's door and the lock over the years, and to quickly summarize, the lock to Kelly's door would lock itself when you closed it unless you set it otherwise. Setting it "open" was done on the inside of the door and doesn't require a key (just flick a button, or some such). Likewise, if you were inside the room, you could open the door by releasing the lock (without a key, using the "button") and exit, but the door would lock behind you when it closed. A key was needed only to get in from the outside if the door was locked. However, the key had been lost for some time. That means when she went out Kelly either left the door unlocked or she set it to lock when she closed the door behind her and when she returned she unlocked it by reaching through the broken window to use the button.

So, if MJK brought the Ripper back as a client, it would be expected that she would either unlock the door herself (or get him to do it) by reaching through the window, or more likely, she left the door "open" as she would be hoping to find a client (and this way doesn't have to reveal how to unlock her door). Once they came into the room, she would then turn the lock "on" for privacy (or it was already on and so locked when they entered and the door closed). That means, when JtR left, he opened the door (unlocking it from the inside using the button), walked out, and the door would lock behind him when it closed - all with no key involved.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Manhattan,

There has been a fair bit on MJK's door and the lock over the years, and to quickly summarize, the lock to Kelly's door would lock itself when you closed it unless you set it otherwise. Setting it "open" was done on the inside of the door and doesn't require a key (just flick a button, or some such). Likewise, if you were inside the room, you could open the door by releasing the lock (without a key, using the "button") and exit, but the door would lock behind you when it closed. A key was needed only to get in from the outside if the door was locked. However, the key had been lost for some time. That means when she went out Kelly either left the door unlocked or she set it to lock when she closed the door behind her and when she returned she unlocked it by reaching through the broken window to use the button.

So, if MJK brought the Ripper back as a client, it would be expected that she would either unlock the door herself (or get him to do it) by reaching through the window, or more likely, she left the door "open" as she would be hoping to find a client (and this way doesn't have to reveal how to unlock her door). Once they came into the room, she would then turn the lock "on" for privacy (or it was already on and so locked when they entered and the door closed). That means, when JtR left, he opened the door (unlocking it from the inside using the button), walked out, and the door would lock behind him when it closed - all with no key involved.

- Jeff

I find it interesting that leaving the latch "open", or ON vs OFF, it means that when the door is closed as you leave, it will lock. It seems like counterintuitive phrasing.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Manhattan,

There has been a fair bit on MJK's door and the lock over the years, and to quickly summarize, the lock to Kelly's door would lock itself when you closed it unless you set it otherwise. Setting it "open" was done on the inside of the door and doesn't require a key (just flick a button, or some such). Likewise, if you were inside the room, you could open the door by releasing the lock (without a key, using the "button") and exit, but the door would lock behind you when it closed. A key was needed only to get in from the outside if the door was locked. However, the key had been lost for some time. That means when she went out Kelly either left the door unlocked or she set it to lock when she closed the door behind her and when she returned she unlocked it by reaching through the broken window to use the button.

So, if MJK brought the Ripper back as a client, it would be expected that she would either unlock the door herself (or get him to do it) by reaching through the window, or more likely, she left the door "open" as she would be hoping to find a client (and this way doesn't have to reveal how to unlock her door). Once they came into the room, she would then turn the lock "on" for privacy (or it was already on and so locked when they entered and the door closed). That means, when JtR left, he opened the door (unlocking it from the inside using the button), walked out, and the door would lock behind him when it closed - all with no key involved.

- Jeff

hi jeff
as far as im aware kelly didnt bring clients back to her room. her argument with barnett was for letting her girl friends crash there if they needed a place to stay. and re blotchy and aman being possible clients...blotchy didnt seem to be a client (he could still have been the ripper though)but someone she knew and was perhaps interested in as a new boyfriend and Aman, well theres alot of people including myself that think he was probably made up by hutch.

again, pointing to the probability that mary kelly knew her killer. what say you?

[Michael W Richards]

The Ripper mutilated; he didn't behead or dismember. His victims were Caucasian female prostitutes. He didn't stage his victims, he just left them where he killed them. The Ripper killed over a 10-week period. Other serial killers killed over a much longer period.

So say, 6 victims.

Stride wasnt mutilated at all. Nor was Tabram. So..another killer at the same time? At least one other for my money, because I dont see the killer of either of those women being a Torso maker either. I think you rely too much on a single active serial killer premise...because as we see today, in much larger populations of course, perhaps 10 or even hundreds of multiple killers killing simultaneously.

[Losmandris]

I am sorry Jeff but you are way off track it tells us that it takes an experieced modern day medical expert working quickly 4 mins to open up an abdomen and remove a uterus and kidney in the same way the killer is supposed to have removed them at the crime scene. There is no way a killer or anyome esle in 1888 could have carried out those same removals in that same time it would be impossibe and this experiment proves that.

The medical expert had everyhting going for him light, proper equipment surgical gloves to aid the removal quickly, light to be able to see what he was doing, a body laid out on a table to be able to work on, none of thse were available to the killer, and I must remind you again that Brown states at least 5 mins add to that other relevant times and actions the killer was responsible for at the crime scene and you run out of time, and not forgetting the degree of difficulty there would have been in trying to work in a blood filled abdomen with a long bladed knife

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

But remember the expert was working on a live person, with whom he had an exacting duty of care over. The ripper would have had no such duty of care, so could be as rough and quick as he liked.

[Guest]

Hi Manhattan,

There has been a fair bit on MJK's door and the lock over the years, and to quickly summarize, the lock to Kelly's door would lock itself when you closed it unless you set it otherwise. Setting it "open" was done on the inside of the door and doesn't require a key (just flick a button, or some such). Likewise, if you were inside the room, you could open the door by releasing the lock (without a key, using the "button") and exit, but the door would lock behind you when it closed. A key was needed only to get in from the outside if the door was locked. However, the key had been lost for some time. That means when she went out Kelly either left the door unlocked or she set it to lock when she closed the door behind her and when she returned she unlocked it by reaching through the broken window to use the button.

So, if MJK brought the Ripper back as a client, it would be expected that she would either unlock the door herself (or get him to do it) by reaching through the window, or more likely, she left the door "open" as she would be hoping to find a client (and this way doesn't have to reveal how to unlock her door). Once they came into the room, she would then turn the lock "on" for privacy (or it was already on and so locked when they entered and the door closed). That means, when JtR left, he opened the door (unlocking it from the inside using the button), walked out, and the door would lock behind him when it closed - all with no key involved.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff;
I believe you're describing a more modern day lock as far as the "button" is concerned. The room of MJK's was, shall we say, a piece of crap as I'm sure the lock was. I was thinking the lock was more of a bolt or sliding block just stuck on some old door by McCarthy.

Manhattan

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Jeff;
I believe you're describing a more modern day lock as far as the "button" is concerned. The room of MJK's was, shall we say, a piece of crap as I'm sure the lock was. I was thinking the lock was more of a bolt or sliding block just stuck on some old door by McCarthy.

Manhattan

It was a Spring Latch which could be key access, left unlocked, or set to lock behind the person leaving. It also could be set from inside without any key.

[Fiver]

Stride wasnt mutilated at all. Nor was Tabram.

Tabram not mutilated?

"She [Tabran] had 39 stabs on the body. She had been dead some three hours. Her age was about 36, and the body was very well nourished. Witness had since made a post-mortem examination of the body. The left lung was penetrated in five places, and the right lung was penetrated in two places. The heart, which was rather fatty, was penetrated in one place, and that would be sufficient to cause death. The liver was healthy, but was penetrated in five places, the spleen was penetrated in two places, and the stomach, which was perfectly healthy, was penetrated in six places." - Dr. T. R. Killeen

[Abby Normal]

Tabram not mutilated?

"She [Tabran] had 39 stabs on the body. She had been dead some three hours. Her age was about 36, and the body was very well nourished. Witness had since made a post-mortem examination of the body. The left lung was penetrated in five places, and the right lung was penetrated in two places. The heart, which was rather fatty, was penetrated in one place, and that would be sufficient to cause death. The liver was healthy, but was penetrated in five places, the spleen was penetrated in two places, and the stomach, which was perfectly healthy, was penetrated in six places." - Dr. T. R. Killeen

exactly fiver. she was stabbed to the point of mutilation and also had a CUT to the privates. post mortem overkill