Pub or Street?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's all your fault,you know.

Should have known better.

Shall I be blamed for nothing?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Well, Sir, I put it to you that the theory of Kozebrodsky and Diemschitz lying through their teeth is equally unfalsifiable, as is the idea that there were really grapes in that hand. So we are on equal handing on that score!

The illusion theory is standalone, whereas I can draw on any supporting evidence, to build up a case.

I donīt know whether the theory of mistaking blood clots for grapes is "popular", but I do know that it offers a very likely explanation for the matter, whereas suggesting that a medico missed out on the grapes, that noone found them on the ground and that witnesses from a distance are better judges than a trained doctor examining a body makes for a lot less likely suggestion. Far from engaging in popularity contests, I much prefer to try and find simple and viable explanations to what would otherwise be peddled as enigmas.

A fair point, however, the grapes, if they were there, would have been removed well by the time Johnston arrived, let alone Blackwell.
They were probably in her right hand, same as the cachous was at the time.
Fanny Mortimer seems to indicate that both were in the same hand.

The right hand, by the way, never had any cachous in it. It was the left hand that did. The left hand was partly closed, the right was fully open.

OMG! I'm sorry about that!
How could I have made such an elementary mistake?
Every Ripperologist knows the cachous were in the left hand!
Perhaps I've just been reading too much inquest testimony?

Edward Spooner (inquest):

[Daily News] When the man struck the match I bent down and lifted up the chin of the deceased. The chin was just warm. The blood was still flowing from the throat, which was cut. I noticed a bit of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a flower on her breast. I am sure I did not move the position of her head or body when I touched her.

[Daily Telegraph] I noticed that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and some red and white flowers pinned on her breast. I did not feel the body, nor did I alter the position of the head. I am sure of that.

[Morning Advertiser] One of the Jews struck a match and I lifted up the chin. I put my hand under the chin and lifted it. The chin was slightly warm, as if chilled. Blood was still flowing from the throat. I did not feel any other part of the body. I noticed she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned to her breast. I am sure I did not move the position of her head at all.

[The Times] I could see that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned on to her jacket.

It was the right hand that had held the cachous.
That's probably were the grapes were too.
Someone 'nicked' the grapes - probably young Ashbrigh.
Someone else, inadvertently caused the cachous packet to drop, and then relocated it to the left hand (under the thumb and against index finger).
It was the 'spilling' of the cachous packet that resulted in the right hand getting bloodied.
It was probably due to PC Lamb...
Lantern was in left hand - trying to feel pulse with right hand - crowd moving in - too much pressure - cachous packet drops - tries to 'catch' it by pushing Stride's hand down - hands smears with blood against neck - places packet under thumb of left hand (almost hides it) - more congealing blood leaks onto hand - places hand against chest, in open position - doesn't mention it to anyone - Johnston doesn't even notice the blood.

Now tell me how she hung onto the cachous packet...

[DJA]

Great to see this thread has stayed on track since I've been away!

Tristan

It's all your fault,you know.

Should have known better.

[DJA]

Regarding cachous. Check out Horner and Sons of Mitre Square.

https://books.google.com/books?id=C9...square&f=false

They eventually extended through to 5 Mitre Street.

Excellent 'photo somewhere. Taken after 6 was demolished.

[Fisherman]

Simpler, yes, but the simplicity is due to layering your subjective interpretation onto the subjective interpretation of someone long dead.
The 'visual illusion of grapes theory' is unfalsifiable.
The grapes are a problem - the 'theory' makes the problem go away.
Hence its apparent popularity.

As for the right hand, yes it was open when Blackwell looked at it.
Not long before that though, it was closed, and with a packet of cachous in it.

Well, Sir, I put it to you that the theory of Kozebrodsky and Diemschitz lying through their teeth is equally unfalsifiable, as is the idea that there were really grapes in that hand. So we are on equal handing on that score!

I donīt know whether the theory of mistaking blood clots for grapes is "popular", but I do know that it offers a very likely explanation for the matter, whereas suggesting that a medico missed out on the grapes, that noone found them on the ground and that witnesses from a distance are better judges than a trained doctor examining a body makes for a lot less likely suggestion. Far from engaging in popularity contests, I much prefer to try and find simple and viable explanations to what would otherwise be peddled as enigmas.

The right hand, by the way, never had any cachous in it. It was the left hand that did. The left hand was partly closed, the right was fully open.

[DJA]

Lollies?

They are the breath freshener sweets known to this day as cachous and that particular brand was first produced in the 1890s.

Precisely the point I made.

Real cachous contained cachou powder,like the 1888 brands in 6 gram tins.

What you pictured are lollies from the 1930s.

God only knows where "nothing" got his from.

[jerryd]

Regarding cachous. Check out Horner and Sons of Mitre Square.

https://books.google.com/books?id=C9...square&f=false

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Prolly my fault.
I was going to write up a new thread, but the inertia here seems too great

[Losmandris]

Great to see this thread has stayed on track since I've been away!

Tristan

[MrBarnett]

Those are 20th century scented lollies made under license.
Doubt they contained any cachou powder.
In 1888 the real product were sold in tiny tins.

Lollies?

They are the breath freshener sweets known to this day as cachous and that particular brand was first produced in the 1890s.

[MrBarnett]

In 1895 cachous were sold at Harrods for 3 shillings an ounce.

That’s fascinating, Dave. But is it necessarily relevant to Stride?

[DJA]

I’m with you, Christer. She could have bought them herself or someone could have bought them for her.

And she could have bought them on the night she was killed or days - weeks - beforehand.

I don’t think this brand of cachous would have been available in 1888, but these are probably the sort of jars from which they would have been dispensed into small bags or wraps of tissue paper at that time.

Those are 20th century scented lollies made under license.
Doubt they contained any cachou powder.
In 1888 the real product were sold in tiny tins.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think it is a lot simpler. There were never any grapes in the hand (The Times of the 3:rd of October writes, quoting Blackwell: "The right hand was lying on the chest, and was smeared inside and out with blood. It was quite open.")

Now, if the hand was quite open and she was on her side with the hand dangling over her chest and quite open, logic dictates that no object, least of all round or oblong objects, would stay in the hand, and so we may conclude that the hand had not a single grape in it.

As for Diemschitz not speaking about the grapes at the inquest, that may well owe to him having realized by then that he got it wrong on the night.

Isnīt that a much less intricate and unlikely explanation than one of conspiracies and lies - and gravity-defying grapes?

Simpler, yes, but the simplicity is due to layering your subjective interpretation onto the subjective interpretation of someone long dead.
The 'visual illusion of grapes theory' is unfalsifiable.
The grapes are a problem - the 'theory' makes the problem go away.
Hence its apparent popularity.

As for the right hand, yes it was open when Blackwell looked at it.
Not long before that though, it was closed, and with a packet of cachous in it.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Exclusive brand.

Sutton's Own.

Home brand, wrapped in cheap tissue paper.
Louis sold the sweetmeats out of the back of his barrow, at the markets.
He sold coconuts too.
Generally speaking, he sold edibles.
Not much different to Matthew Packer, in that respect.
Jewelry? No so much.
That's why he had to stop at #40 Berner, to offload, before taking the pony and cart back to Cable street.
Jewelry would have been light enough to carry from Cable street, by hand (saving the extra trip).

[DJA]

In 1895 cachous were sold at Harrods for 3 shillings an ounce.