Pub or Street?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

No. You tell me why you hang on to a suggestion that has nothing going for it instead. It should be much more interesting.

With pleasure.

Abraham Ashbrigh observed the body prior to Spooner.

Evening Standard, Oct 1:

I was one of those who first saw the murdered woman. It was about a quarter to one o'clock, I should think, when I heard a policeman's whistle blown, and came down to see what was the matter. In the gateway, two or three people had collected, and when I got there I saw a short, dark young woman lying on the ground, with a gash between four and five inches long in her throat. I should think she was from twenty-five to twenty-eight years of age. Her head was towards the north wall. She had a black dress on, with a bunch of flowers pinned on the breast. In her hand there a little piece of paper, containing five or six cachous. The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name who a do not know - a man who goes out with a pony and barrow, and lives up the archway, where he was going, I believe, to put up his barrow on coming home from market. He thought it was his wife at first, but when he found her safe at home he got a candle and found this woman. He never touched it till the doctors had been sent for. The little gate is always open, or, at all events, always unfastened.

So which hand is he referring to?
Is it the hand nearest the flower on the breast, that he has just mentioned, or the other?
Remember, this is under the light of a match or a candle.
A clue is that he was able to estimate the number of cachous in the paper.
How could he have done so if the cachous were partially hidden under Stride's left thumb?
He couldn't, of course, and that's because the cachous were in the right hand.

By the way, nice of Louis not to touch the body till the doctors had been sent for!

Now if PC Lamb were responsible for relocating the cachous from right to left hand, we might be able to detect a change in position of the left arm.
We should also try to get a sense of the pressure Lamb was under.
Oct 3:

[Daily News] There were about 30 people in the yard, some of whom had followed me in. The people were standing about a yard from the body. When I turned my light on the body some of the people pressed round, but I begged them to stand back as they might get the blood on themselves and perhaps get into trouble in consequence. When I put my hand on the face it was slightly warm. The pulse was not beating. Deceased was lying on her left side. The left arm was under her. The right arm was across the breast. The body was only five or six inches from the wall. The clothing was not disturbed. I scarcely think the boots could be seen except perhaps the sole. She looked as if she had been laid quietly down, and there was no sign of a struggle. The blood was running some distance and was close to the door of the club. The blood nearer to her was partly congealed.

[Daily Telegraph] Did you observe how the deceased was lying? - She was lying on her left side, with her left hand on the ground.
Was there anything in that hand? - I did not notice anything. The right arm was across the breast. Her face was not more than five or six inches away from the club wall.
Were her clothes disturbed? - No.

[Morning Advertiser] As I was examining to see whether there were any other injuries beyond that on the throat, the crowd pressed close in. I begged of them to keep back as they might get blood on their clothes and get themselves into trouble. I put my hand on the face and on the arm. The face was slightly warm. I felt the wrist, but could not feel the pulse. I put my hand on the wrist, but the pulse had ceased to beat. The body was lying on the left side, and her arm was lying under. I did not examine to see if there was anything in the hand. The right arm was lying across the breast. Her face was not more than five or six inches from the wall. Her clothes were not disturbed. No part of her legs was visible, and the boots could scarcely be seen excepting the soles. She looked as if she had lain quietly down. There was no appearance of her having struggled in any way. Her dress was not crumpled.

[The Times] Deceased was lying on her side, and her left arm was lying under her.

So at this stage, the left arm appears to be tucked up against the body, if not right under it.
That means the left hand was probably invisible to both Ashbrigh and Spooner.
Lamb claims not to notice anything in the left hand, and yet he is holding a lantern in his left hand.
He may have had better visibility than anyone.
In contrast, Ashbrigh and Spooner were reliant on match or candle light, and yet both were able to see the cachous, and even count them!

Now note the hand smeared with blood, and the position of the left arm, when Johnston examines the victim.
Oct 4:

[Daily News] I did not notice at the time one of the hands being smeared with blood. The left arm was arched and lying away from the body, and the right arm was bent across the breast.

[Daily Telegraph] I left the body precisely as I found it. There was a stream of blood down to the gutter; it was all clotted. There was very little blood near the neck; it had all run away. I did not notice at the time that one of the hands was smeared with blood. The left arm was bent, away from the body. The right arm was also bent, and across the body.

[Morning Advertiser] I noticed blood on one of the hands when Dr. Phillips examined the body, but not at the time. The left hand was lying away from the body and the arm was bent. The right arm was also bent, and lying on the body. There was no mark of anyone having stopped on the stream of blood.

The left arm position seems to have changed!
Johnston does not see the blood on the right hand, as it is now open against the chest.
Lamb must have bent the left arm at the elbow when placing the cachous packet partially in her left hand.

Now tell me how Liz managed to hang onto the cachous...

[Wickerman]

I think the LEFT hand offered up a good chance of palpating for the pulse, Jon. But I donīt think Johnston took it, he just felt for warmth, since he knew Stride was dead.

But Christer, the left hand was nearest the wall. There was no room to stand between the wall and her body to crouch down and take a pulse.

So are you now saying that Lamb was the one who lifted her hand? he was not, we have it on record that he never examined her hands. He felt for a pulse, but it seems he felt the left hand, not the right one......

No, no Christer, as I mentioned before. Someone caused the blood stains on her right hand.
As the only two people to touch her hands were Lamb & Johnson, and Johnson claimed it wasn't him, yet Lamb claimed he found the fluid blood to be clotted (he meant congealed), then Lamb had to have touched the congealed blood and transferred it to her hand.
PC Lamb is the only candidate, so he must have been the one.

Also, bear in mind, Lamb used the word "clot" when he meant "congeal", this is a common mistake.
So how do you know the same mistake was not made regarding the right hand?
Maybe it wasn't smeared with "clotted" blood (lumps), but only smeared with "congealed" blood (dried flat smears). The mistake has already been made once, if it was made a second time it severely scuttles the "grapes must have been clotted blood" argument.
Dried flat smeared blood do not in any way resemble round or oval grapes.

You feel for a pulse with the fingers, to do that he had to raise her hand (the right hand), his fingers being underneath the wrist - so her hand was raised slightly while he did this. This is not "examining" the hand, only feeling for the pulse.

Maybe Diemschitz also said it, but the fact of the matter is that Johnston did say that he never looked at the hands:

"The CORONER. - Did you look at the hands? Witness. - No. I saw the left hand was lying away from the body, and the arm was bent. The right arm was also bent. The left hand might have been on the ground."

If Johnson can describe the positions of the hands, then clearly he "looked" at the hands. In this case when the coroner said "look" he must have meant "examine". Johnson did look at the hands, but he did not examine them. He also touched both hands as he knew they were both cold.
How do you do that in the dark without "looking" at the hands?

I am not confusing or forgetting anything, Jon. Witnesses whoi in bad lighting see blood clots on tha back of a hand and mistke them for grapes will of course think they are looking at the palm, not the back of the hand. Itīs simple logic, right?

You're joking, right?

How many grapes it takes to make a bunch is something I must leave unanswered. I can imagine a small bunch and a large bunch, so there will be some playing room, right?

I was just trying to avoid some confusion between the man buying a half-pound of grapes, and Stride holding a couple in her hand. She wasn't holding the entire half-pound :-)

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Lsd confuses me

You'll be right at home on the Wallace thread then.

[Wickerman]

I donīt know whether the theory of mistaking blood clots for grapes is "popular", but I do know that it offers a very likely explanation for the matter, whereas suggesting that a medico missed out on the grapes, that noone found them on the ground and that witnesses from a distance are better judges than a trained doctor examining a body makes for a lot less likely suggestion........

You keep saying this "the medico's missed the grapes", yet the sequence of events demonstrates the hand was lifted (the pulse being felt), before both Blackwell & Phillips arrived on scene.
The two peoples who were in the best position to see the grapes (PC Lamb & Dr Johnson) were never asked. Them both attending the inquest before the subject was raised.

On the hand being touched (hand raised) anything under the fingers will fall to the ground. Why you think black grapes should be noticeable in the dark, in the mud, and possibly in the blood, and likely crushed by many boots when they removed the body, is surprising. The cachous were noticeable as they were in a white? packet. The packet being noticed first.

Rather than accept a couple of black grapes could have been easily missed among the muddy cobbles, in the dark, and crushed beyond recognition, you would sooner; the grape stalk, the fruit-stained handky, the two witnesses who saw grapes, and the man (Packer) who admitted to selling Stride (ie; the couple) grapes, are errors or lies or unrelated items of evidence.
Talk about denial! :-)

A comment you made earlier made me smile.
You wrote:
"......And the reason the witnesses opted for grapes could be on account of how they were common merchandise...."
That was an odd defense to make.

To my mind, any witness discovering a body laying in a pool of blood, and seeing dark marks on a hand will naturally think of blood stains, as opposed to black grapes!
I can't think of any murder in history where a witness swore to seeing grapes that turned out to be blood clots. That must be among thee most bizarre miss-identificatiosn in the annals of crime.
And you're only defense is to keep saying that two doctors should have seen the grapes in the dark after they had most probably fallen from the hand.
That might make sense to you Christer, but.......

Blackwell & Phillips obviously didn't, just like PC Lamb didn't see the cachous that we ALL know where there. These things happen my friend!

[Fisherman]

Dr Blackwell (recalled), in the Daily Telegraph 6th Oct;

"I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand. My impression is that the hand gradually relaxed while the woman was dying"

Incidentally, both doctors denied seeing any grapes in Stride's hand or near her body;

Blackwell: "Did you perceive any grapes near the body in the yard? - No.
Did you hear any person say that they had seen grapes there? - I did not."

Phillips: "Neither on the hands nor about the body of the deceased did I find grapes, or connection with them."

If only logic and sense had been allowed to rule the day, that would be the final nail in the coffin of the thinking Notblamedfornothing represents.

Sadly, I donīt think logic and sense has all that much of an impact on everybody.

[Joshua Rogan]

Dr Blackwell (recalled), in the Daily Telegraph 6th Oct;

"I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand. My impression is that the hand gradually relaxed while the woman was dying"

Incidentally, both doctors denied seeing any grapes in Stride's hand or near her body;

Blackwell: "Did you perceive any grapes near the body in the yard? - No.
Did you hear any person say that they had seen grapes there? - I did not."

Phillips: "Neither on the hands nor about the body of the deceased did I find grapes, or connection with them."

[Fisherman]

Lsd confuses me

Me too. You are forgiven.

[Fisherman]

"Dr. Blackwell, recalled, said there was one point on which he was not quite clear. He had removed the cachou from the left hand, which was nearly open; in fact, it was between the thumb and the first finger, which accounted for the police not seeing it, and it was he who spilled the cachous on the ground."

There we go. Evening News, October 6. No loose ends left.

[DJA]

Lsd confuses me

[Fisherman]

Thanks. Typo of sorts.

Yes, you wrote shilling but meant pence.

A typo.

Of sorts.

[Fisherman]

OMG! I'm sorry about that!
How could I have made such an elementary mistake?
Every Ripperologist knows the cachous were in the left hand!
Perhaps I've just been reading too much inquest testimony?

Edward Spooner (inquest): "I noticed that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand..."

It was the right hand that had held the cachous.
That's probably were the grapes were too.

Aha. So you put your trust in how Spooner spoke about the cachous being in Strides right hand - and you accept that all of the rest who witnessed about it were wrong when they said it was the left hand that held the cachous?
You know that the right hand was hanging down Strides side and completely open as Blackwell examined it - and you still think that hand would have held on to a packet of cachous and a number of grapes?
And you think Blackwell noticed the cachous but not the grapes?

Maybe Spooner is not the best of witnesses? "I should say it was about 25 minutes to 1 when I first went to the yard" was his time estimation. Maybe he got that dead wrong and the right hand thing dead right, putting all the other witnesses to shame...?

Someone 'nicked' the grapes - probably young Ashbrigh.
Someone else, inadvertently caused the cachous packet to drop, and then relocated it to the left hand (under the thumb and against index finger).
It was the 'spilling' of the cachous packet that resulted in the right hand getting bloodied.

You ARE aware that Blackwell said that he as the one who spilled the cachous? I canīt remember the source, but it is there.

Now tell me how she hung onto the cachous packet...

No. You tell me why you hang on to a suggestion that has nothing going for it instead. It should be much more interesting.

[DJA]

Cachous were named after the drug obtained from Senegalia catechu.

The drug is an astringent.

Have a look at Hip Lip Lizzie's bottom lip.

She is showing a very distinct sign of hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia.

Jack has offered cachous to her and she has picked them out of his palm with thumb and forefinger.

Last thing she did.

[DJA]

Thanks. Typo of sorts.

[MrBarnett]

In 1895 cachous were sold at Harrods for 3 shillings an ounce.

I think you’ll find that was 3d (pence) not 3s shillings) - 12 x cheaper!

[MrBarnett]

Precisely the point I made.

Real cachous contained cachou powder,like the 1888 brands in 6 gram tins.

What you pictured are lollies from the 1930s.

God only knows where "nothing" got his from.

Where do you get the term ‘lollies’ from? Is that an Aussie thing? A lolly here is a sweet or an ice on a stick. It might make more sense to use the UK terminology.

What Stride was carrying were described as both cachous and sweetmeats, weren’t they? That’s what was in the jars in the picture - cachou sweets. And because they were in jars, they would have been sold in paper bags or twists of paper.

I’m not sure how you were able to date the jars, but that brand was on the market in the 1890s.