Pub or Street?

[Wickerman]

He of course could put his fingers against a hand without tampering with it or changing it´s position, Jon. Which was in all probability exactly what he did.

No Christer, you know her hand was palm down on her breast.
To feel for the pulse with his fingers PC Lamb will lift the hand.
A grape or two will naturally fall to the ground out of sight.

You can feel for the pulse at the neck, which was readily accessible. If he felt for it on the hand, he will reasonably have put his fingers against the left hand wrist, which was conveniently resting against the ground underneath Stride. However, he said very clearly that he did not look at the hands, and I think we must accept this.

No, no. you are forgetting her body was facing the wall. Her feet, her knees & left hand were therefore further away as PC Lamb had to be standing behind the body, by her back. So the most convenient hand was directly below him, the right hand across her breast.
The neck was not accessible, it was Johnson who untied her bodice at the neck, not PC Lamb. Johnson arrived after Lamb.

Stride was lying with the right side of the neck up, the side that was not very deeply damaged, and there would have been ample space to feel for a pulse at the neck without disturbing or touching the wound as such. Equally, he could have used the hand, but we have it on record that he says that he did not look at the hands, ........

Christer, Dr Johnson felt the hands, he said they, "were quite cold".
He also says he did not notice blood on the hand.
He did NOT say that he didn't look at the hands, that was Diemschitz.

Then again, the left hand WAS clenched, and the packet was small, so that could explain the matter very neatly. But they were of course not missed, so why would the grapes be? It makes no sense whatsoever, least of all if Kozebrodsky and Diemschitz could see them in her hand as the doctor examined it!

The grapes had fallen from the hand by the time Blackwell arrived.
Neither PC Lamb nor Dr Johnson were asked about any grapes.

No, Jon, there must not be a wound on a hand to allow for blood clots on it, just as there need not be a wound to a wall to allow for the same thing. The blood must of course have come from another source than the hand, otherwise Phillips would not have called it a mystery.

Round blood clots on a wall?
I think you are confusing congealed blood stains with blood that has clotted due to flow - what we are talking about are clots of blood that are beaded.
Congealed blood smears are not clots.
"Clot" and "Congeal" is not the same thing.
A pool of blood will congeal (basically flat), whereas blood escaping from a wound will clot (into lumps).

You seem to be forgetting, the blood smears/clots were on the BACK of the hand, the grapes were in the palm of the hand.

I find it a lot more bizarre when somebody believes in a trained medico taking hold of the hand of a murder victim and failing to see a bunch of grapes falling out of it,....

Not a "bunch" of grapes, maybe two or three, we don't know.
The man was carrying the package of grapes, it would be unseemly for a woman to have a handful of grapes in the Victorian era.

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman

Doe's it make any difference as to what kind of cachous Liz Stride was about to partake of seconds before she was murdered?

Not to me, no - but it apparently did to Notblamedfornothing, which was why I offered my take on things.

[DJA]

It does.

Most likely medication for the haemorrhageing of her bottom lip.

Apparently the last thing she did was pick them out of Jack's hand.

[Observer]

Hi Fisherman

Doe's it make any difference as to what kind of cachous Liz Stride was about to partake of seconds before she was murdered?

[Fisherman]

As discussed last September,there were at least two brands of English cachous available at the time,Hooper's and Thomas Jackson.

Lajaunie were formulated in France in 1880.

Ah, yes, right you are. I misremembered that one. But the main thing to remember is that what we today refer to as cachous were not the only type of tablets sold as cachous in London of 1888 - there were also mild, sweet tablets sold by that name, and so it seems the types could easily be confused. And we don´t know what type Stride had in her hand.

[Fisherman]

Then how could he know the hands were cold?
Yes, he took hold of the hand, which is to be expected by a doctor to feel for a pulse.

He of course could put his fingers against a hand without tampering with it or changing it´s position, Jon. Which was in all probability exactly what he did.

Precisely, (feel for the pulse) thankyou.

You can feel for the pulse at the neck, which was readily accessible. If he felt for it on the hand, he will reasonably have put his fingers against the left hand wrist, which was conveniently resting against the ground underneath Stride. However, he said very clearly that he did not look at the hands, and I think we must accept this.


No, because the neck was the point of the wound. He will know not to disturb the injury to the body, especially when the hand is easily accessible.


Stride was lying with the right side of the neck up, the side that was not very deeply damaged, and there would have been ample space to feel for a pulse at the neck without disturbing or touching the wound as such. Equally, he could have used the hand, but we have it on record that he says that he did not look at the hands, and that makes it less likely that he palpated them for a pulse. And of course, Johnston never says he DID palpate for a pulse, whereas he DID say that he felt the body for warmth. It may well be that he realized that she was dead and so he didn´t need to palpate for a pulse in the first place. He said that the blood had all run away and coagulated, so there really was no hope of life.

Which means the fingers were not clenched as in the other cases - not consistent with strangulation?
Not that the fingers were not folded.

The hand was open, Jon. Open hands do not have folded fingers, do they?

Remember, things get missed in the dark. PC Lamb did not notice anything in her left hand, yet it is commonly accepted she was holding those cachous.
People, including police & doctors can miss details in the dark. They are only looking for certain things, not taking note of everything.

Then again, the left hand WAS clenched, and the packet was small, so that could explain the matter very neatly. But they were of course not missed, so why would the grapes be? It makes no sense whatsoever, least of all if Kozebrodsky and Diemschitz could see them in her hand as the doctor examined it!

Not cherries, blackberries, strawberries, blueberries? - why grapes?
Blueberries are more the size of clotted blood, not grapes.

That, Jon, depends on the size of the clots. And the reason the witnesses opted for grapes could be on account of how they were common merchandise. Plus it could be on account of how blueberries are round, not oblong, strawberries are heart shaped, not oblong and blackberries are not oblong either.

Was Mary Kelly covered in grapes?, Annie Chapman, Kate Eddowes?

None of the C5 were.

Christer, blood will clot AT an open wound, it is the body's defense in an attempt to halt blood loss.
If there is blood clotted ON the hand there MUST be a wound ON the hand - there was no wound on the hand!
Blood takes time to clot, it is not instantaneous.

No, Jon, there must not be a wound on a hand to allow for blood clots on it, just as there need not be a wound to a wall to allow for the same thing. The blood must of course have come from another source than the hand, otherwise Phillips would not have called it a mystery.

Stride cannot get blood clots on her own hand by touching her throat, in that case there would be smears of blood.

That is correct! And so it was not Stride who transferred the blood to the hand.

(even if she had grabbed her throat, that blood would be in the palm of her hand, not on the back & wrist, and it wouldn't be clotted)

There is no law prohibiting cut people to touch the cut area with the backs of their hands, though. But as I said, I do not think Stride transferred the blood to her hand.

Smears or stains of blood do not look like grapes! (neither do real blood clots actually)

Not if you look three-dimensionally at them, no. But if you see them as two-dimensional in the dark, I disagree: in such a case, there is nothing prohibiting them looking very much like grapes. Google "blood stains", Jon!

I remember this same debate years ago. I pointed out then that the most likely cause (in my opinion) of the blood on the back of the right hand was when PC Lamb felt for a pulse. He stated, when he began to examine the body the blood was clotting, to know that in the dark he must have put his fingers in the blood. The blood is either wet or sticky - clearly it was sticky (clotting) and he felt for the pulse with the same hand causing the transfer of blood.

That would produce imprints, though, not clots. And anybody familiar with how a pulse is taken knows that you use your fingers, not the thumb. So the distribution of the clots is wrong - there should have been four imprints at the wrist and a single imprint from the thumb at the back of the hand. And frankly, would not Phillipos realize that he was looking at a palpation when seeing the blood?

Whether the grapes really existed or not has no great impact on the Ripper murders, it's one of those little details of no real consequence.
There is no theory behind it that I can think of, yet in order to try dismiss the grapes some have had to invent a conspiracy theory out of nothing. It's all rather bizarre.

I find it a lot more bizarre when somebody believes in a trained medico taking hold of the hand of a murder victim and failing to see a bunch of grapes falling out of it, while two witnesses notice those grapes. And then the grapes - Shazam! - magically disappear.
Then again, that is what Ripperology is always about: People calling ideas they dislike bizarre, people talking about inventing conspiray theories (not that I understand how it makes for a conspiracy theory to suggest that two witnesses can get things wrong in a state of confusion and bewilderment and from a distance in the dark - I think magically disappering grapes that medicos avoid speaking about makes for a much better conspiracy). Oh, and of course, what Ripperology is so often serving up: sour grapes...

Maybe we should just settle for disagreeing, Jon?

[DJA]

As discussed last September,there were at least two brands of English cachous available at the time,Hooper's and Thomas Jackson.

Lajaunie were formulated in France in 1880.

[Fisherman]

Is it just a coincidence that the 3 people who mention seeing grapes, also see what they refer to as sweetmeats, whereas everyone else calls the same thing, cachous?

No one see grapes and cachous, or only sweetmeats - they either see only cachous, or both grapes and sweetmeats.

You should look up the old material about the cachous. There were two sorts of cachous around at the time, mild, sweet ones and brethfresheners. The cachous lajaunie, the most well-known variant, had not yet been invented.

There is nothing odd about it at all, therefore.

[Fisherman]

I wonder if Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky wondered why the grapes - or what they took to be grapes - were not being removed from the hand they could see them in?

They could not see any grapes because there were no grapes.

Can you provide us with a reason - any reason - that the medicos would lie about or withhold information about the grapes? I certainly cannot.

[Wickerman]

Yup, very true. Johnson also states that he did not handle the body: "I left the body precisely as I found it". So Johnston was not the medico who "opened up" the right hand of Stride, as witnessed by Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky; it was Blackwell. Johnston also states that "I did not notice at the time that one of the hands was smeared with blood", further telling us that he could not possibly have tampered with the hand, in which case he could not have missed the blood.

Then how could he know the hands were cold?
Yes, he took hold of the hand, which is to be expected by a doctor to feel for a pulse.

Johnston was there in the capacity of Blackwells assistant, and he would have settled for checking for signs of life, nothing else....

Precisely, (feel for the pulse) thankyou.

Once he knew that death had occurred, he waited for Blackwell to take over and do the investigation - all of it, the right hand included. Johnston would have done exactly what he said, felt the body for warmth. One would have assumed that he also felt the body for a pulse, but he may have done so at the neck,....

No, because the neck was the point of the wound. He will know not to disturb the injury to the body, especially when the hand is easily accessible.

But what does he say about the right hand? Well, he says that "The right hand was open and on the chest, and was smeared with blood."

Which means the fingers were not clenched as in the other cases - not consistent with strangulation?
Not that the fingers were not folded.

Remember, things get missed in the dark. PC Lamb did not notice anything in her left hand, yet it is commonly accepted she was holding those cachous.
People, including police & doctors can miss details in the dark. They are only looking for certain things, not taking note of everything.

Once again, dark oblong clots may well look like grapes from a distance. To my mind, the only possible explanations for Diemschitz´ and Kozebrodzkys observations is that they either mistook the blood clots for grapes, alternatively that they made the story up ( a much less credible solution to my mind ).

Not cherries, blackberries, strawberries, blueberries? - why grapes?
Blueberries are more the size of clotted blood, not grapes.

Was Mary Kelly covered in grapes?, Annie Chapman, Kate Eddowes?

Christer, blood will clot AT an open wound, it is the body's defense in an attempt to halt blood loss.
If there is blood clotted ON the hand there MUST be a wound ON the hand - there was no wound on the hand!
Blood takes time to clot, it is not instantaneous.
Stride cannot get blood clots on her own hand by touching her throat, in that case there would be smears of blood.
(even if she had grabbed her throat, that blood would be in the palm of her hand, not on the back & wrist, and it wouldn't be clotted)
Smears or stains of blood do not look like grapes! (neither do real blood clots actually)

I remember this same debate years ago. I pointed out then that the most likely cause (in my opinion) of the blood on the back of the right hand was when PC Lamb felt for a pulse. He stated, when he began to examine the body the blood was clotting, to know that in the dark he must have put his fingers in the blood. The blood is either wet or sticky - clearly it was sticky (clotting) and he felt for the pulse with the same hand causing the transfer of blood.

Whether the grapes really existed or not has no great impact on the Ripper murders, it's one of those little details of no real consequence.
There is no theory behind it that I can think of, yet in order to try dismiss the grapes some have had to invent a conspiracy theory out of nothing. It's all rather bizarre.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Is it just a coincidence that the 3 people who mention seeing grapes, also see what they refer to as sweetmeats, whereas everyone else calls the same thing, cachous?

No one see grapes and cachous, or only sweetmeats - they either see only cachous, or both grapes and sweetmeats.

[DJA]

Starting to suspect Blackwell or Johnston had the munchies and ate the grapes.

Dunno why they'd put salt on them though.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I wonder if Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky wondered why the grapes - or what they took to be grapes - were not being removed from the hand they could see them in?

[Fisherman]

Johnson's inqurst testimony, from the Times;

"The CORONER. - Did you look at the hands? Witness. - No"

Yup, very true. Johnson also states that he did not handle the body: "I left the body precisely as I found it". So Johnston was not the medico who "opened up" the right hand of Stride, as witnessed by Diemschitz and Kozebrodsky; it was Blackwell. Johnston also states that "I did not notice at the time that one of the hands was smeared with blood", further telling us that he could not possibly have tampered with the hand, in which case he could not have missed the blood.

Johnston was there in the capacity of Blackwells assistant, and he would have settled for checking for signs of life, nothing else. Once he knew that death had occurred, he waited for Blackwell to take over and do the investigation - all of it, the right hand included. Johnston would have done exactly what he said, felt the body for warmth. One would have assumed that he also felt the body for a pulse, but he may have done so at the neck, since he did not even look at the hands, as Joshua points out.

When it comes to the left hand, Blackwell says "The left hand, lying on the ground, was partially closed, and contained a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper." So here we have confirmation of a partially clenched hand, and we can see that Blackwell tells the inquest that there was a packet of cachous in it.

But what does he say about the right hand? Well, he says that "The right hand was open and on the chest, and was smeared with blood."

It was OPEN. So Kozebrodskys and Diemschitz´ suggestion that the doctor opened up the right hand was never true. Blackwell never did that, for the sinple reason that it was always open.

Now, Blackwell very clearly stated that there were cachous in the left hand, the way any discerning medico would do. So why would he leave out that there were grapes in the right hand if if there really WERE grapes in it? To who, exactly, would that make sense? The long and the short of things is that he would not do that, and that we may therefore conclude that the grapes were never there.

Jon suggests that they could have fallen out of the hand as the doctor opened it and ended up in darkness on the ground. But A/ the doctor did not open the hand to begin with, B/ the suggestion that he himself would not notice the grapes whereas two witnesses would leaks pretty badly and C/ the grapes would have been found as the body was lifted anyway.

Once again, dark oblong clots may well look like grapes from a distance. To my mind, the only possible explanations for Diemschitz´ and Kozebrodzkys observations is that they either mistook the blood clots for grapes, alternatively that they made the story up ( a much less credible solution to my mind ).

The salient point of the matter should be quite obvious, though: Liz Stride did not hold any grapes in her hand as she was found dead.

[DJA]

I think we have got somewhere. We can be reasonably sure that the handbill had nothing to do with the beadle’s son and we know he took up the career he claimed upon leaving the army.

Thanks for your time and effort in clearing this matter up for once and all.

Looked up the trades listings,etc.

Consider myself most fortunate to have the help of a fan of John,Frank,Harry and Ringo .....



The Beadles!