Pub or Street?

[Abby Normal]

How well do we know who is affiliated with the club?
Is Elizabeth Stride affiliated?

i personally dont know anyone who was affiliated with the club. i wasnt alive back then.

[drstrange169]

>>The modus operandi seems clear; walk around near the intended murder location, while handing out and/or selling copies of Arbeter Fraint (to avoid arousing suspicion, due to loitering). Observe the police beats (time, duration, direction). Wait for prostitutes to approach, or speak to those nearby, in a friendly manner. When the time is right, head off to the murder location, with the intended victim.<<

I'm pretty sure, standing in the street in the middle of the night, trying to sell subversive literature would arouse suspicion and be noted by all passing by.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

The modus operandi seems clear; walk around near the intended murder location, while handing out and/or selling copies of Arbeter Fraint (to avoid arousing suspicion, due to loitering). Observe the police beats (time, duration, direction). Wait for prostitutes to approach, or speak to those nearby, in a friendly manner. When the time is right, head off to the murder location, with the intended victim.

And yet, not one of the witnesses or PC's mention anything about discarded piles of Yiddish papers. It's like they just vanished!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>>The modus operandi seems clear; walk around near the intended murder location, while handing out and/or selling copies of Arbeter Fraint (to avoid arousing suspicion, due to loitering). Observe the police beats (time, duration, direction). Wait for prostitutes to approach, or speak to those nearby, in a friendly manner. When the time is right, head off to the murder location, with the intended victim.<<

I'm pretty sure, standing in the street in the middle of the night, trying to sell subversive literature would arouse suspicion and be noted by all passing by.

What did the man, seen by PC Smith with Liz Stride, have in his hand?
Would Smith have been suspicious of the man, if Liz had not been there?

Assuming one could read the title in the dark - what sort of suspicion would be aroused by political literature of that kind - that the man was a Socialist or Anarchist?

In the case of Mitre Square, suspicion possibly was aroused, but only in hindsight.

Dorset Street was probably busy enough in the middle of the night, that observing police beats could be done for a little while at least, without being noticed.
In this case, the AF papers only serve as insurance, just in case he is confronted with a constables 'hello, hello, hello'.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

And yet, not one of the witnesses or PC's mention anything about discarded piles of Yiddish papers. It's like they just vanished!

When sold for a penny, they probably only ended up in the hands of those that were genuinely interested - so not many tossed away.

Immediately after the murders, focus was on the yard/square/court - not the nearby street(s).
Later in the day, those streets were packed with people, so in a sense any discarded copies would have vanished - underneath shoes and boots.

[DJA]

And yet, not one of the witnesses or PC's mention anything about discarded piles of Yiddish papers. It's like they just vanished!

Prolly with the pony cart,grapes,etc.

OP certainly cannot be blamed for nothing

[drstrange169]

>> What did the man, seen by PC Smith with Liz Stride, have in his hand?<<

Something that attracted his attention enough to be able to describe it.



>> Would Smith have been suspicious of the man, if Liz had not been there?<<

His "Police Code" book specifically told him that it was his job to note it.



>> Dorset Street was probably busy enough in the middle of the night, that observing police beats could be done for a little while at least, without being noticed.<<

How many Yiddish readers lived in Dorset Street?



>>In this case, the AF papers only serve as insurance, just in case he is confronted with a constables 'hello, hello, hello'.<<

Yes, it would have insured that the club would be directly linked to the murders.

[Wickerman]

What did the man, seen by PC Smith with Liz Stride, have in his hand?
Would Smith have been suspicious of the man, if Liz had not been there?

He carried a newspaper parcel if you recall, the man had just bought a half-pound of grapes from Packer.

A newspaper parcel typical of the time...

[drstrange169]

What's being alluded to is that, the 18ins by 6 or 8ins Smith described is about the size of the Club's newspaper. A fact, I think Tom Wescott first noted on this site many, many years ago.

The problem is, Smith doesn't give a depth, which would be an obvious point if it were a large bundle of A.F.'s.

[Losmandris]

Hi Tristan,

The only possible sightings of victims with JtR are all in the street. Eddowes appears to have had no money at the time she was released for being drunk, Chapman and Nichols both went out with the stated intention of obtaining money, and Kelly was also known to be behind in her rent and lacked ready money, and Stride's last sighting was of her on the street. There are no cases where the victims were potentially spotted in pubs, however. So, of the two options, it appears the most likely place for them coming into contact was on the street.

Now, Nichols, at least, was sighted after she went out to get money and said she had earned her doss money a few times and spent it on drink that night, so she must have been in a pub at some point, so the lack of reports of the victims being spotted in a pub is just absence of evidence for that possibility, and so the same must be considered for the other cases as well. If so, it may be that JtR spotted potential victims in a pub, and followed them out, approaching suitably intoxicated women.

- Jeff

Thanks Jeff.

This really makes sense to me and I suspect it was probably the case. I imagine that he approached all the women, who were likely intoxicated on the street, taking advantage in this vulnerability.

Am I correct in thinking that all the victims were likely intoxicated at the point of their murder?

Tristan

[JeffHamm]

Thanks Jeff.

This really makes sense to me and I suspect it was probably the case. I imagine that he approached all the women, who were likely intoxicated on the street, taking advantage in this vulnerability.

Am I correct in thinking that all the victims were likely intoxicated at the point of their murder?

Tristan

Hi Tristan,

Polly Nichols was seen prior to her murder and was reported as being quite intoxicated. Annie Chapman, I think, had been drinking prior to leaving the doss house, but was also very ill. It's unclear if she was intoxicated or just showing signs of her illness. Kate Eddowes had been arrested earlier for being drunk, and had only just been released, but she would still have been drunk to some extent. And Mary Kelly was reported to have been drinking I think, and her late night signing seems to suggest she might have been as well. I don't think there's any evidence to suggest Elizabeth Stride was drunk that I can recall. So, other than Stride, I believe there is testimony that does point to some level of impairment for all of the victims. Drunkeness, though, was very common in the area, so they would not stand out because of that, but it could still be it made them suitable to JtR's selection criterion.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

What's being alluded to is that, the 18ins by 6 or 8ins Smith described is about the size of the Club's newspaper. A fact, I think Tom Wescott first noted on this site many, many years ago.

The problem is, Smith doesn't give a depth, which would be an obvious point if it were a large bundle of A.F.'s.

Odd how a 'parcel wrapped in newspaper' can transform into a bundle of news print. From barely a few feet away (re: PC Smith) the difference should be quite obvious.

[drstrange169]

Yes, I would have thought so.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

He carried a newspaper parcel if you recall, the man had just bought a half-pound of grapes from Packer.

I'm surprised a comment like this can be made, without anyone objecting, or at least questioning.

The desperate desire to believe the Socialist club had nothing to do with the murders, seems quite common.

[drstrange169]

>>Where did JtR approach his victims? In the pub on the street? Did he buy them a few drinks first or did he simply proposition them on the street? Is there any evidence in favour of one over the other?<<

Logic suggests the latter as the pubs closed long before the murders.