Coincidence?

[Sam Flynn]

There was no Torso serial killer !

Even if there wasn't, the torso murders could have inspired others... if only to chop bodies up and throw them in the Thames!

[Fisherman]

The first thing to keep in mind here is that there is likely not any reason to believe that the sound had anything to do with the murder of Annie Chapman - the medical implications are against such a thing.

The second thing to keep in mind here is that the time given for the sound is in conflict with the time given by Mrs Long for her sighting of Chapman outside the yard. And both she and Cadosch were dead certain of their respective timings. If we are to accept Cadoschīs statement about the sound as belonging to the Chapman murder (which is unlikely in the extreme from the beginning), then we must rule out Long as being mistaken.

The third thing to keep in mind is that what Cadosh describes does not sound anything like a person falling against a fence and slumping down to the ground. Here is the wording from the Morning Advertiser:

"I went in and came back into the yard in three or four minutes, and then I heard a sort of fall against the fence which divides the yard from No. 29.

What sort of noise was it? - Well, as if something had touched the fence suddenly."

"A sort of fall" is what Cadosch speaks about. Now, what does a fall against a fence sound like? Well, that depends on what is falling against it. A flagpole, an elephant and a human being will make different noises, all of them. But there is a similarity between the two latter suggestions: once an elephant or a person falls against a fence, they will slump down towards the ground. And that produces a sound of itīs own. But no such sound is spoken of by Cadosch, he instead says that it sounded like something "touched the fence suddenly".
But the sound of something that touched a fence suddenly leads my thoughts to a ball kicked against it, somebody accidentally banging his elbow against it, a bird flying into it, soil being thrown against it from a shovel - something like that.

If Cadosch heard nothing more than a sudden touch to the fence, what is it that makes him think that he has heard a fall? Because a fall against a fence encompasses a slumping movement, and if that slumping movement is not there (if the falling person bounces off the fence and falls away from it): where is the thud against the ground?

If Cadosch is describing a falling person, he is not making a very good job of it, is he?

[Trevor Marriott]

Its undeniable that when details are published about sensational murders there will be more people that are spurred on to act. I don't mean copycats, or mimics, I mean people with their own mental issues and desires, emboldened by and attracted to the "fame" that acting out ones demented fantasies produces. Negative/Positive press...doesn't matter to those guys. They still like the Fame.

I wonder if Jack was at all emboldened by Torso man?

There was no Torso serial killer !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Even if there were, packing cases don't move on their own.

Not in my world they don’t Sam

[Sam Flynn]

If the noise of something brushing/falling against the fence heard by Albert Cadosch at around 5.25 wasn't made by Annie or her killer what could it have been made by? You previously suggested packing cases but I pointed out that there weren't any in the yard at the time.

Even if there were, packing cases don't move on their own.

[Herlock Sholmes]

So again if the killer was between Chapman head and the wall when he cut her throat , how did the blood get there.?

Better still why start from behind her head kneeling to cut her throat only to move to the left or right side to start the mutilation process side .?

The evidence\ suggest that she was rendered unconscious , lowered to the ground and had her throat cut from that position while the killer was on the right side of her body , thus continuing the mutilation also from that position without the need to move around the body doing cartwheels kicking fences as some would have us believe .

As you can see from Wickerman’s post #170 we have an explanation for the blood on the wall therefore the rest of the suggestion that the killer couldn’t have cut her throat from the position that I suggested collapses. I’m not saying that that’s what definitely happened just that it’s a plausible possibility.

I don’t see why you have to talk about cartwheeling and kicking fences? There’s nothing unbelievable or far-fetched about the suggestion that the killer might have changed positions during the mutilations to get better access. The gap between Annie’s body and the fence was relatively narrow so it’s entirely plausible that the killer might have brushed his shoulder against the fence.

Ill ask a question Fishy (anyone else can give an answer too of course) It’s a question that I’ve asked before but I’ve never gotten a specific answer from you.

If the noise of something brushing/falling against the fence heard by Albert Cadosch at around 5.25 wasn’t made by Annie or her killer what could it have been made by? You previously suggested packing cases but I pointed out that there weren’t any in the yard at the time.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

I've seen arterial spray first hand. My own. You wouldn't have described it as' spots of blood'. It was ruddy great arcs up the wall!

[Herlock Sholmes]

There were blood spots on the wall at a low point, but her intestines had been thrown over the shoulder (in the direction of that wall) so the cause for those spots of blood is evident.

Excellent point Wick.

[Trevor Marriott]

Because 'syncope' is a loss of blood pressure to the brain, loss of consciousness is only a symptom not a cause.
Given the throat was cut and the amount of blood loss around the neck it was his foregone conclusion that the loss of blood pressure was due to the loss of blood at the neck.

On the topic on syncope this term was used by doctors in the Pinchin St Inquet testimony

Dr Biggs states
"I am also perplexed by their cause of death! ‘Syncope’ is just a word denoting fainting or collapse. In the olden days, words such as ‘exhaustion’, ‘shock’ or ‘syncope’ were used as a ‘cause of death’ and were not questioned. We couldn’t get away with that now! It sounds like they don’t actually know the cause of death, but they are reluctant to admit it. These days it is much safer to say that the cause of death is unascertained unless you are sure of something you can back up!"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[etenguy]

Cheers C.d!
I'd dare say being a penniless Prostitute,you'd not have the choice to be picky,Ripper Scare or not.
But I don't believe Eddowes was there to prostitute herself ;-)

Hi Blotchy's Beer Bucket

According to the list of possessions for Eddowes, she had no money on her. Isn't it likely she went out to earn her doss money? What is your suggestion for her spending about half an hour hanging about the streets at that time of night?

[Blotchy's Beer Bucket]

Hello B.B.B.,

Welcome to the boards.

I would say the corner of a dingy square where you would at least have some opportunity to run or yell for help plus you don't have to look over your shoulder for rats.

c.d.

Cheers C.d!
I'd dare say being a penniless Prostitute,you'd not have the choice to be picky,Ripper Scare or not.
But I don't believe Eddowes was there to prostitute herself ;-)

[DJA]

While certainly not impossible, I find it hard to believe that any prostitute at the time would be willing to go into an abandoned house with a client she just met when she knew Jack was out and about. Also empty houses were probably nasty and filled with trash and rats. What reason could a client give for wanting to go into one?

c.d.

6 & 7 Mitre Street were not abandoned houses.
Both were classified as dwelling and/or restaurant in 1887 and continued as such for decades.

[DJA]

There were blood spots on the wall at a low point, but her intestines had been thrown over the shoulder (in the direction of that wall) so the cause for those spots of blood is evident.

Part of the stomach above the left shoulder may have also contributed,however arterial spray is also most likely.

[c.d.]

:-) I find it hard to believe that you find it hard to believe, it's purely par for the course in the life of a prostitute.
The ordinary public are reluctant to go out at night but not the desperate prostitute, as evidenced a century later with the Yorkshire Ripper.

I understand that they needed money and not going out at night was simply not an option. Going out on the streets is one thing. Going into an abandoned house is another. Would they have done it anyway? Probably, but I think it would have been done with a great deal of reluctance.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

While certainly not impossible, I find it hard to believe that any prostitute at the time would be willing to go into an abandoned house with a client she just met when she knew Jack was out and about. Also empty houses were probably nasty and filled with trash and rats. What reason could a client give for wanting to go into one?

c.d.

:-) I find it hard to believe that you find it hard to believe, it's purely par for the course in the life of a prostitute.
The ordinary public are reluctant to go out at night but not the desperate prostitute, as evidenced a century later with the Yorkshire Ripper.