Faecal matter on apron piece

[DrHopper]

I respectfully submit DrHopper that Catharine Eddowes wounds may seem similar in nature but the wounds and the murder overall was unlike the previous victims in many important ways. For one we have the new odd wounds without purpose on her upper thigh and pubic area , the new cut around the navel, the new facial wounds, the new colon section placed between the arm and body...and we have a cut and rip to acquire the apron section, brand spanking new.

The location is very important also. It is with the Eddowes murder that the police found justification for their belief the man lived in the East End. The apron section placed at Goulston suggested a departure route. That it was at the entrance of model dwellings that housed 90% + Jewish folks is significant also.

Cheers,
Mike R

I agree to a point. But this is what I mean about not using a macroscopic lens. JTR has a minute or two at most to kill and mutilate and get the hell out of there. He is not going to be delicately placing cuts in places with meaning. Pull back from looking at the placement of these cuts (navel, etc) and look at the greater picture - he is ripping open women and scattering bits and taking others. That is the point, that is the signature - the opening of women. No one else is doing that, only JTR. Other people are murdering women, as well as men and children, but only JTR rips - that is what defines this type of 'pottery'!
Of course, this is my opinion and not meant as 'gospel', but I don't think anything is to be gained by using such focused microscopic study of the differences between the victims - Jack isn't worried about the placement of his cut on the thigh, he may be targeting the thigh, but is not concerned about where the cut ends up, just the brutal taking apart of women. A process he achieved perfectly with MJK, simply because he had the time and the place, but which was what he wanted to do to all the women.

Now place, that is perhaps a little different, I'll concede to a point. However, I'm not a believer in either the GSG (coincidence and random scrawl) or the placement of the apron piece (convenient alleyway, not measured or pointed placement). Again, just my opinion.

[DrHopper]

Hello Dr.

"Kate's wounds are exactly like all the others."

Indeed? You might have a go at the post mortem in each case. Quite a few differences. But, what is MOST striking, is the similarity between Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

Of course there are differences in the detail, but looking through a macroscopic lens what we have is a person killing prostitutes and mutilating them in a gruesome manner. This is the one defining characteristic of the JTR killings, and it allows them to be lumped together simply because they do stand out against the background noise of murder without the mutilation. Certainly, people are being stabbed, but no one else is doing the mutilating. I think it is folly to look at the minor differences in the shape, location, even purpose, of the mutilation and declare that they are from a different hand or enacted by different drivers.
That's not to say that the differences cannot provide clues and insight, just that they are not, in my opinion, evidence of different people/motives at work

[Tom_Wescott]

I think what can be forgotten when studying these cases is that you need to have a story that makes sense to go along with the existing physical evidence.

I for one will not argue that many here have forgotten the 'make sense' part of the stories they're selling.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. And I wasn't thinking of Trevor when I wrote that.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks. I could live with all that.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I think what can be forgotten when studying these cases is that you need to have a story that makes sense to go along with the existing physical evidence. The contemporary police themselves suggested a pre-arranged meeting, the fact that she was incarcerated and unable to predict when she would be released could be addressed with a story like I suggested.

I respectfully submit DrHopper that Catharine Eddowes wounds may seem similar in nature but the wounds and the murder overall was unlike the previous victims in many important ways. For one we have the new odd wounds without purpose on her upper thigh and pubic area , the new cut around the navel, the new facial wounds, the new colon section placed between the arm and body...and we have a cut and rip to acquire the apron section, brand spanking new.

The location is very important also. It is with the Eddowes murder that the police found justification for their belief the man lived in the East End. The apron section placed at Goulston suggested a departure route. That it was at the entrance of model dwellings that housed 90% + Jewish folks is significant also.

Cheers,
Mike R

[lynn cates]

same/different

Hello Dr.

"Kate's wounds are exactly like all the others."

Indeed? You might have a go at the post mortem in each case. Quite a few differences. But, what is MOST striking, is the similarity between Polly and Annie.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

OK

Hello Mike. Thanks. I could live with all that.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

clever

Hello Colin. Thanks. If so, that would mean he killed Polly and Annie. But would such a clever chap:

1. Talk loudly against the shutters at Hanbury?

2. Take time to steal worthless rings?

Cheers.
LC

[DrHopper]

I'm an archaeologist - actually a pottery specialist. When we are faced with a site with thousands of sherds of pot, we have to try and sort them into manageable categories that we are able to understand, and from which we can draw meaningful conclusions. To do this we have to sort them into groups - usually by surface treatment. Now, within each groups there are variations- these are minute, but they are nonetheless differences. These are the result of different temperatures when firing, differences in preservation, function when still in use, differences in paint make-up, or even the mood of the potter. However, because they all correspond with a class of pottery, and have various markers that clearly separate them from other types, they are grouped. And we have a motto amongst pottery nerds - "group, don't split", otherwise, we would end up with with millions of separate examples with infinitely small differences .

Now, this is a slightly long-winded way of rebuking Michael W Richards' comment above. Kate's wounds are exactly like all the others - bodily mutilation, albeit in a extreme example. Location matters not - Jack is using his 'pottery' wherever he can, outside or inside. Relatively minor' points such as the shape of the cuts, or their exact placement, are not especially important in identifying ripper victims, it is enough to know that he is murdering prostitutes in a particularly gruesome manner (i.e. he is not simply stabbing them). If we carry on splitting into different groups, then we end up with a situation where we have no JTR as such, just a dozen killers all killing in the same way, but because they kill on different days of the month, they have to be different people (pace Lynn).
Just my two penn'orth.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks. 2 questions arise.

1. Warning to whom?

2. Warning concerning what?

Cheers.
LC

In my opinion we have a warning from either a group or an individual whom Kate was aware of. I believe the story that states she was going to go to the Police to turn in the killer....so why not tell the cops that arrest her you ask?

Maybe she was negotiating, or thought she was, for a payout from the culprit or group to keep quiet. Maybe her drinking that afternoon ended with..... "Meet my man at around 1 at the carriageway to Mitre Square, he'll take you to the person who will pay you. He will be wearing a red scarf."

She comes late...waits, thinking she has missed him, when suddenly he comes up from behind, startles her, and she turns, places her hand on his chest...." You startled me....I thought Id missed you".

"Come with me missus, our contact is waiting in the square."

All the best Lynn,

Mike R

[Bridewell]

Arguable

Hello Errata. Thanks. I think of the facial mutilations along the lines of the 3 monkeys--see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. (And keep your nose out of it.)

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,
Could they not simply be the irrational actions of a psychopathic serial killer? Or a killer who's taunting the police by flaunting the fact that he's got so much time available?

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

take warning

Hello Mike. Thanks. 2 questions arise.

1. Warning to whom?

2. Warning concerning what?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Errata. Thanks. I think of the facial mutilations along the lines of the 3 monkeys--see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. (And keep your nose out of it.)

Cheers.
LC

I believe we have a viable interpretation there Lynn.....the face was cut as a warning.

The term copycat isnt applicable to this murder because as we know the wounds to Kate were not like the wounds to previous victims aside from the facial wounds, the organs absconded with are another variance.

As is the location.

Best regards Lynn,

Mike R

[Bridewell]

Past His Prime

At times I've been tempted to think of McKenzie and Coles as the work of a washed-up, past his prime serial killer who tries but can no longer get excited about mutilation,.

Hi Damaso,
I've been similarly tempted in respect of Alice McKenzie. I think Coles was by another hand though.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

Trow away hypothesis.

Hello Damaso. Hmm, you should meet Professor Trow.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

monkeying around

Hello Errata. Thanks. I think of the facial mutilations along the lines of the 3 monkeys--see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. (And keep your nose out of it.)

Cheers.
LC